Foxwoods 5/10: Was the good doctor being a jerk?

[chesspain]

After absorbing way too much ribbing on these boards about my hesitancy to play higher than 2/4 (online) or 4/8 (live), I decided to try my hand at the 5/10, full kill game during my two-day trip to Foxwoods earlier this week. I will spare everyone the full details of this trip, except to state that the tables were as juicy as JT and others had claimed, and that I won approx. $430 after seventeen hours of play. And the wife won $130 playing 2/4 over fourteen hours /images/graemlins/grin.gif. On to the hand in question:

A fiftyish, somewhat overweight blond woman who was obviously a regular was sitting in the #2 seat. She seemed to be a semi-competent player, although she tended to call down too much with second best hands, and she tended to raise light in kill pots. In addition, she liked to slowplay. Indeed, in our prior confrontation, she openlimped from EP with K4s, after which I raised with AA to get it heads up. She checkcalled a K-high flop, checkcalled when she turned trip kings, and bet into me when she rivered the K4 boat. So she basically won the least possible with her monster. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

In the hand in question, I was in the #5 seat, which was either the CO or the button, with 88. This was a kill pot, although I don't remember if she had the kill button or if the kill blind was to her direct left, in the #3 seat.

Anyway, the action is folded to her and she raises, folded to me and I three-bet, everyone else folds, and she calls. The flop contained three low rags, possibly rainbow. She checkcalled. The turn brought a king, and she checkcalled. At this point, I'm pretty sure she has a K, because I think she would have folded any other two Broadway cards at this point, although I realized that she may be hanging on with a higher pocket pair to my 88.

The river brought another rag...she checked, and I checked behind. She then shows her Slick, and as I get ready to muck she blurts out "Dealer, I'ld like to see his hand." With my dead-on position in front of the dealer, I remember GoT's suggestion, and I fling both cards directly into the muck stack, and reflexively push them in flush. The dealer then looks to her with the word "Sorry" written all over his face.

She then snaps "Why d'ya do that?"

I then reply with the non-sensical "You don't get to see my cards unless I've paid." (?? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ??).

She then replies with the even more non-sensical "But I did pay," which was foolish and incorrect, since she checked the river. She then conjurs the spirit of my late mother and says "I guess you were too ashamed to show them." /images/graemlins/blush.gif

And soon afterwards, I was able to turn my -$150 deficit for this session into a $130 gain, during which time I also began drinking rather heavily. Oh, the wonder...of it all.

So, does everyone think I was a tool for firing my cards into the muck?

[elindauer]

I don't see what you stand to gain by throwing your cards in the muck. She has the right to see them, just show. Who cares?

my 2 cents.
Eric

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
So, does everyone think I was a tool for firing my cards into the muck?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think it was /images/graemlins/cool.gif.

[J.R.]

turbo muck your cards and ignore her.

[sfer]

Good move on your cards, Chess. I will do that like 100% of the time.

Those kill games are sweet.

[mikeyvegas]

I have no problem with you pushing you cards in the muck. I thought that rule about showing your cards when asked was to prevent collusion. What kind of collusion was she trying to detect???

[sfer]

She has the right but the rules were intended to prevent collusion, not so you can gain insight into how others play. I don't like giving that information and I hate when people abuse the rule.

[Boylermaker]

Asking a losing player to reveal his cards after you've just won a pot is, in my opinion, classless (unless suspecting of a possible collusion). I would act the same as you did.

[MoreWineII]

I muck them 100% of the time.

The rule was designed to prevent collusion. Asking to see hands is becoming an epidemic, I see this at least 2 or 3 times per hour at my local B&M.

My buddy who usually accompanies me to the casino punctuates his mucking of the cards with yelling and flailing about, which is usually very entertaining. I think I with integrate this into my routine as well. One day I might even work up enough righteous anger where I actually take my hole cards and rip them into a million pieces and throw the remnants the inquirer's way.

Did I answer your question?

If not, muck 'em and <censored> 'em.

Nobody has a right to see your cards unless they can provide a legitimate reason why they suspect collusion.

[bisonbison]

Chess, don't let the hose beast get ya down.

Also, drinking heavily should begin almost immediately upon sitting down, in order to establish a friendly image and then should continue once the heavy drinking-influenced losses ensue, to establish that you are too drunk to remember them.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, drinking heavily should begin almost immediately upon sitting down, in order to establish a friendly image and then should continue once the heavy drinking-influenced losses ensue, to establish that you are too drunk to remember them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming I'm not driving, I usually like to begin drinking about two hours before I plan to leave, so that I can be good and loosened up for the final leg of the session. Funny, though, I probably play even tighter after I begin drinking, since I'm happy enough to just be getting free drinks and cracking wise, and hopefully playing and winning enough to pay for my blinds.

In fact, during a fairly dry card stretch in the final hour before we were set to leave, I had played few hands but won a nice pot with AKs that I got to three-bet from the SB. The next decent hand I saw came a few orbits later, when I received 99 UTG. I proceed to throw two $5 chips into pot, shout "Raise," and without looking up I blurt out drunkenly "Heh, the rock's got a hand!" Everyone folds in rapid-fire succession, after which I look around, shake my head disgustedly, and accept the pot while muttering to myself. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[cjx]

I know this woman and I hate her. Why might you ask? I don't have any particular reason, she just has a miserable look on her face and it's hard to tolerate.

Sorry, just had to mention it. She also called me on the river once when she had the nuts instead of raising, for some reason that just bothers me... maybe she felt bad, but I don't think that was the case at all.

Oh, and there's certainly nothing wrong with mucking them just like there's nothing technically wrong with her asking to see them.

cjx

[DiceyPlay]

I don't like showing my cards either. I had a similar thing happen last week in a 4/8 game at hawaiian gardens. An older asian guy that had been bouncing from table to table points at my cards and says "his cards" as I'm mucking them directly into the muck and the dealer can't protect the muck in time. A short time later I have AA and play it fast and furious. At the river a player in middle position slow rolls his J6o for the rivered trip 6's. Once again, the older asain guy points, but this time he does it much earlier and the dealer has the muck protected. I flip up the cards and start berating the old guy (I hate that when I do that). I was having one of those sessions where my good starters don't hold up and my draws never materialize. Anyways, I was like "Why the F*** do you want to see my cards?" Then in a childish whiney voice mimicing him "Let me see his cards. Let me see his cards." I calmed down soon after (5 seconds) and said "No, I'm sorry. You have the right to ask that." Later in the same session I had KK cracked by a guy with K2 when the flop came 225. At the end of that hand I asked the asian guy "Do you want to see it again?" in snickering cowering voice. He shook his head no. I don't think I should act like that. Those are the rules and if they want to see my cards they have the right. I acted like a punk. I don't have to like it when they do that (and they are using the rule for the wrong reason), but I should respect their right and not get all pissy at the table. But at the same time I feel like Fk'em! Does that make sense?

[Joe Tall]

Opps, I forgot to say that the level of play is not as scary as the Foxwoods regulars as you move up.

Your mistake is not turbo-mucking instantly at the showdown. Everything else is fine. Nicely done.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Yeknom58]

I don't think you were a tool.

The only thing I would have done differently is actually say, "I didn't want to show my pair of 4's".

[chesspain]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=933284&page=0&view=ex panded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

I guess I'm glad she wasn't at my table /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jimswarthow]

Sounds like a fun trip congrats on your wins. Always feels nice. IMHO. Asking to see someones cards no matter what the circumstance after you have won the pot is about as crappy a thing as one can do. Other than being slow rolled I cannot think of anything less classy. I do not care what the rule is no one gets to see my cards if i can possibly help it unless I decide to let them. Good move.

[TheHip41]

Next time she askes, just crumple them up real fast and eat them. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MoreWineII]

The only breach of ettiquette is someone asking to see your cards when there clearly isn't any evidence of collusion.

I stand by what I said earlier.

[BottlesOf]

she openlimped from EP with K4s, after which I raised with AA to get it heads up

Wait, why did you raise with AA??? (hint: Ed Miller)
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif


But seriously, F her. Muck your cards just like the good GoT told you to. I hate people who abuse this rule.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
She then replies with the even more non-sensical "But I did pay," which was foolish and incorrect, since she checked the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was correct.

I will never understand the big deal about showing cards at showdown when asked. I have absolutely no problem doing this. I figure it's always possible to happen. It really saves from worrying or stressing about it.

For the record, she did pay. If you made it to showdown, she can ask. There doesn't have to be a bet on the last street. You know this. It doesn't matter her, or anybodys reason for asking, it's within the rules to ask. Your whole game is not going to be exposed because they get to see one hand. Not even close. If it is, you need a stronger game. Most, especially at this limit, won't adjust if they saw 50% of what you play. Most would think your kind of maniacal for reraising with that prelfop as they'd likely only do this with only premium. Which could plant a seed that actually gains you action on future hands.

If she's this predictable a player and the table is that good, why tap the glass?

Online they can use a hand history to see what you had at showdown, do you write the sites and tell them the same thing? No.

Use your energy, and waste your stress on more important things.

b

[Abednego]

Well I don't know what a tool is but the very first chance I get to do the very same thing I'm jumping at it! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[bernie]

Her other responses in that thread are dead on. It's not a big friggin' deal the way just about everyone in this thread has made it out. AND, it's in the rules. No meaning or conditions are in the rules, just the rule itself. This isn't even close to any real importance to ones game. To me, anyone who gets bent over this is letting their ego get involved.

God, if something that petty irritates you, i can't wait to see when the bad beats really start piling up how you'd react.

It's not worth getting bent out of shape over. The best thing you can do is just show your cards like it's no big deal. Because it isn't a big deal. If you make it a big deal, imo, you are open for tilting a bit. You are bringing it upon yourself. Which can really sour the mood on a table.

Some act as if this is equivalent to someone raping their mothers. By the time you're done throwing a tantrum over this, you could be 1/2way into the next hand with more pleasant players.

b

[MoreWineII]

It's also the rule that if your cards get lost in the muck, the dealer can't pull them out and show them.

So...*shrug*

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also the rule that if your cards get lost in the muck, the dealer can't pull them out and show them.

So...*shrug*

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is relevant how? Fighting fire with fire? What does that have to do with anything as far as playing? How does this help the situation at all other than escalating it a bit?

I mean, good, you mucked them. You showed everyone at the table that you can be irritated by something small and insignificant to the big picture. Yeah, i'd hang my hat on that. Great accomplishment. Congratulations. Boy, you showed them who not to mess with by doing that, by god.

b

[MoreWineII]

It's the least I can do to combat the complete and utter abuse of this rule that's becoming so prevalent in card-rooms.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

P.S. You should see me when someone *not involved in the hand* asks to see my cards. Then I whip out my AK.....47, not big slick.

[BeerMoney]

Bernie, your points seem dead on.

[bernie]

shhhhhh.

Don't tell anybody.

After all, this is a prime objective when you sit down at a table. To not have anyone ask to see your hand. Something to build one's game around.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the least I can do to combat the complete and utter abuse of this rule that's becoming so prevalent in card-rooms

[/ QUOTE ]

soooo.

How do you combat it online? That must just really get your undies in a bunch knowing there is nothing you can do about it there. What's the difference?

It's in the rules, they can do it. As long as it doesn't significantly slow the game down, they can ask to see my 'called' hands all night. Big whoop.

Seems many take someone wanting to see their hand waaaay too personal. Get over it.

God, some players i should ask to see their hands and not even look at their cards. I'll just watch their reaction to being asked. Or before the dealer flips the cards up, get up and walk around til the end of the shuffle for the next hand. Prime entertainment. Bobby Jones would be proud of that move.

b

[MoreWineII]

Um, don't hate me for pointing this out, but I think the only one getting all worked up about this is you?

It doesn't take a whole lot of anger to push my cards into the muck. It certainly doesn't put me on tilt.

Hell, next time, just for you, I'll even smile as I do it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

Not worked up at all. Im just amazed that people get that bent out of shape over it as described in many responses.

Learning not to let this bother you, which it obviously does given your responses along with others and others in other old threads that covered this topic, will help your game. Letting it bother you when someone does ask to see your hand is a sign of a weakness that leads to other weaknesses. Yep, it's actually a hole in one's game. Though minor, it is a hole.

I can't think of any great winning players that i know/admire/ or just take the game very seriously that have played regularly for long periods that let this bother them.

There's no reason to.

Step up your game to the important aspects of it. Not the trivial.

b

[MoreWineII]

Maybe the tone of my posts was wrong. I don't make a big deal about this. I simply muck my cards if I can.

Then it's over and gone from my mind and I move on to the next hand. It's not something that I dwell on.

However, the abuse of asking to see people's hands is something that really needs to be nipped in the bud.