6-handed vs. 10-handed

[Dominic]

interesting results...

I play at UB, mostly $20-$30 SNGs, half 6-handed, half 10-handed. I'm a TAG, rarely chase after draws unless they're cheap, solid starting hands, etc.

After about 200 of each (I know, not a huge sample) my ROI in the 6-handed games is hovering at about 13%, while my ROI at the 10-handed games is at about 45%.

I'm wondering what you guys would surmise from this about my play and why this might be so.

At first, I figured I must be doing well enough to get it down 3-handed, but not making 1sts or 2nds enough in the 6-handed games to make much profit. But my results 10-handed come almost exlusively from placing 1st or 2nd - out of 200 10-handed SNGs, I've only placed 3rd 3 times!

Bascially, I feel I'm playing great until the bubble or once I'm in the money...but I'd like to maximize my ROI once I'm in the money...by taking more 1sts, obviously...my percentages seem to be pretty even between 1sts and 2nds in both games...should I expect this since a lot of HU play will obviously rely on luck, or am I doing something wrong? I feel to be a successful SNG player, I should be winning 65%-75% of the time once I make it down to 2 players. Is this unrealistic? Or is it simply the difference between 1st and 2nd place money, 6-handed vs. 10-handed? Help!

[Dominic]

please help?

[lastchance]

Loosen up when it gets short-handed, and start betting and raising a lot. You cannot be tight when there are large antes shorthanded. You can start raising with any two when it's folded to you on the button, and if it's called and checked back to you on the flop, you start thinking about raising, even if you have nothing, and it's for your entire stack.

Get your chips in the middle if you think they're bluffing, preferably by raising. Get your chips in the middle if you think they'll fold. Just close your eyes and bet. That's my advice.

[JNash]

I don't play 6-handed myself, so I am just speculating...but here are some possibilities:

In 10-handed games, I find that there are often 2-5 players at a table who bust out very quickly--in essence they are the "dead money." Perhaps in 6-handed games there are fewer of these types?

The other possibility is your style may be more conducive to 10-player games. Your ability to come in at 1/2 far more than at 3 is "worth" more 10-handed, given the different payout structures:

Suppose that 6-handed you are ITM (top 2) 40% of the time, with 20% 1st, 20% 2nd--then your ROI will be 9%.

Suppose that 6-handed you are ITM (top 3) 40% of the time, with 20% 1st, 20% 2nd, 0% 3rd--then your ROI will be 45%.

10-handed your ITM finishes are very high quality/EV, (high ratio of 1's and 2's and few 3's) while 6-handed your ability to avoid third doesn't make you money. You'd have to have a much higher ratio of 1st to 2nd 6-handed to equal your 10-handed results.

One other thought for improving your ratio of first to second: play some of the heads-up 2-player SNG's. It teaches you a lot about being aggressive...

[RPatterson]

Your probably just not loose enough in the 6 handed ones.

[C M Burns]

The thing I noticed about the UB 6-handed is the payout is very top heavy, e.g first is considerably more than 2nd (compared w/ stars, but also compared to 10 handed) So for one head-up play is more important and will have smaller blinds in the 6 max generally, But this will also increase you variance in ROI, since no matter how good you are head up play is going to have a very high variance. So it could just be higher variance or your head up game could use a boost, but probably a little of both.

[Dominic]

that makes sense, thanks.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Your probably just not loose enough in the 6 handed ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what i was going to say but his 10 handed results don't bear that out, perhaps the problem is he's running bad 6 handed and his sample size is pretty inconsequential.

Regards Mack

[Cry Me A River]

You told us your placings 10-handed, what are they short-handed?


I tried 5-handed SNGs at Pacific (hey, free money, whatever). In ring games I actually prefer short-handed to full table, however, I did not like the shorthanded tourney at all - You need to finish 1st pretty regularly for it to be worthwhile and since the blinds structure was basically the same, it was nowhere near half the gameplay time. So it just didn't seem worthwhile.

There are some big difference I found playwise - In a 10-table tournament there's usually a couple players who bust out early (as mentioned previously in this thread). Often that means you get someone with double or tripple the buy-in stack early and often that player sucks too (they got that way calling pre-flop all-ins with junk). They often wind up just giving those chips away (ie: to you) almost immediately or sometimes they're LAG's and they can build up a big stack by busting out some more of the calling stations or, they manage to hang to enough of those chips to last a while. Either way, by the time it gets down to the bubble or ITM, you often have one or two big(ish) stacks who really have no business being there except luck and as the blinds increase you can often pick them apart, double-up repeatedly when they call with crap, etc.

Short-handed, there aren't nearly so many chips in play, so you don't get that kind of "chip clumping". Stacks tend to be a lot more even on the bubble and ITM and players don't fluke ITM so often - Obviously sometimes they still do, however, they're nowhere near as likely to "luck" into huge stacks that get them through or allow them to clumsily bully.

I dunno, I think there's some real adjustments to be made for a short-handed tourney:

- Chips are worth more, if it's 800 starting chips, then 10-handed there are 8000 chips in play, 6 handed there are 4800 chips in play. So chips effectively have 1.6 times the value. This means that if you're going to have a more difficult time making up ground if you hit the bubble or ITM short-stacked as chips are in much shorter supply. It also means it's much more difficult to build up a big chip lead (ie when you get heads up). Where you might be 6000 vs 2000 heads up in a 10 player SNG, it'll be 3600 vs 1200 which can make for very different play particularly if the blinds are significant (100/200+ blinds)

- Less players means blinds are less of an issue (I dunno about Party, but I believe at Pacific the structure and progression of the blinds was exactly the same but I could be wrong) as you don't play as many hands so the blinds don't have the same opportunity to increase. So if you count on blind-stealing on the bubble/ITM it's probably not going to do you as much good since the blinds will be so much lower. If the blinds raise more quickly short-handed, then with less chips in play they're going to become very significant very quickly.

(I can't believe I didn't notice the blinds baviour more, this may be a really key issue right here!!)

- Less players means less players seeing the flop, means less suck-outs, means strong hands are generally worth more.

- Payout structure means placing 1st as often as possible is critical. In a full table $5+1 SNG, top-4 finishes are worth: 1st +$19; 2nd +$9; 3rd +$4; 4th -$6 while in a 6-handed table top-4 finishes are: 1st +$9; 2nd +$3; 3rd +$0; 4th -$6

More remarkable than 3rd going from profitable to break-even: In a 10-player SNG, 1st place is 2.1 times the value of 2nd place. In 6-player, 1st place is 3 times the value of second. What's more, since the value of 4th remains the same and the value of 3rd is diminished that's magnified even more - In a 10-handed SNG, a 1st place finish + a 3rd place finish is 1.27x better than 2 second place finishes. In 6-handed a 1st place + 3rd place is worth 1.5x two 2nd place finishes while a 1st place + two 3rd place finishes is worth the same as three 2nd place finshes.

And a 6th place finish is the same as 4th place. So it really is all about finsihing 1st.

All of which means you probably want to get aggressive sooner than full table. How soon, I'm not sure. But keep in mind that 6-handed you only need to loose half the players to get ITM, 10-handed you need to bust out 70% of the players. If you double up your starting chips in a 10-player SNG, you now control 20% of the chips which is nice, but not critical. In a 6 player SNG you'd control 1/3 of the chips which is probably enough to get you ITM if you can just keep up with the blinds. 10-handed, you basically need to double up 3.25 times. 6-handed you need to double up 2.5 times. That's a pretty big difference - Particularly if there are a couple or few yahoos going all-in early and one of them ends up doubling or trippling up and getting a big chip lead - In effect it's a lot like how in a really fishy no-foldem ring game where everyone sees the flop and 6-8 players see the river the odds of your being sucked out become very good so hands, like TPTK, which would be strong against good players are worth much less and if there's a flush available someone's certainly got it. Whoever winds up with that big pile of all-in chips has a much bigger advantage than 10-handed.

Meaning that if you can see some flops cheap with prospective hands (AXs KXs) that you normally wouldn't play early in a SNG it's probably worthwhile to do so if you think you can get callers when you flop a big hand. And when you do have the best hand, you should probably be a lot more aggressive/sneaky than you would be in a 10-player SNG to try and get that chip lead (or just keep other players from geeting that big lead....)

[Dominic]

thanks for the thoughful reply....at UB, 1st pays 70% and 2nd pays 30%...anything else is just plain outta luck.

but I understand where you're coming from...

[Cry Me A River]

Yeh, that's even more top heavy, so I think you also should consider the effect this is going to have on your opponents - They're likely to be a lot more aggressive, looking to get a big enough stack to cruise into 1st. A lot of full table players are quite happy with 3rd...

This may be completely crazy - But, let's say you employ a really aggressive early strategy of trying to manufacture all-in situations with good hands. In the cases where you loose in 6th place, well you just write it off but because it's a quick exit you $ per hour is good if you can finish 1st consitantly when it works (your tournaments/hour will be quite high) - Better to finish 6th in 5 minutes and get to another SNG than finish 4th in 20 minutes.

In effect, you goal is to finish 1st or 6th, nothing in between.

Um, math might be a little sloppy here, so bear with me:

Say a $5+$.50 6-handed SNG. 1st place pays $21 (I hope all this is correct for UB?). I'm going to ignore 2nd place money, consider it a bonus or let it make up for any margin of error...

So, in order to achieve a pretty healthy 20% ROI, you need to place 1st 31% of the time (again, any 2nd place finishes are bonus).

The big unknowns are - Can you consistanly get callers when you push, and can you do so when you're at least a coinflip? And when you do wind up with the big stack early, can you consistantly translate that into a win? Or when you don't get callers, can you still turn this to your advantage - ie: Pushing from late position with a several limpers so you at least get their chips when they fold.


If you can win the all-in 50% of the time, and then translate that early chip lead into a win 62% of the time you'll get that 31% win-rate (20% ROI).

If you can win the all-in 39% of the time, and then translate that early chip lead into a win 80% of the time you'll get that 31% win-rate (20% ROI).

If you want a 40% ROI you need to place 1st 37% of the time.

If you can win the all-in 50% of the time, and then translate that early chip lead into a win 74% of the time you'll get that 37% win-rate (40% ROI).

If you can win the all-in 41% of the time, and then translate that early chip lead into a win 90% of the time you'll get that 37% win-rate (40% ROI).

- Some rounding of % in there, and again I'm ignoring 2nd place finishes so you can maybe drop that post-all-in win rate a little if you finish ITM near 100% of the time.

I dunno, probably crazy....

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]

But my results 10-handed come almost exlusively from placing 1st or 2nd - out of 200 10-handed SNGs, I've only placed 3rd 3 times!


[/ QUOTE ]

One last thought - How many of those were second as opposed to first?

10-handed, a 2nd place finish (assuming 50/30/20 payouts) is a 172% ROI. 6-handed, a 2nd place finish is a 63% ROI.

That's a huge, huge difference!

How does your 1st/2nd place ratio compare 10-handed to 6-handed? That may give you a big clue to what's going on - If you're getting more second place finishes at both games, maybe you're head's up play needs work. Or your bubble play so you're in good position for head's up. Or if there's a difference between 10 and 6 handed that may be the key. If you've got a lot more 2nd place finishes 6-handed then something's going on there...

It could be that you're essentially just skipping places 7-10 but without a increase in your 1st place finishes from a smaller field of opponents. So the result is just a smaller prize pool with no real advantage unless you start picking up more wins...

[Dominic]

In my 6-handed games, I'm placing 1st 19% of the time and 2nd 23% of the time....10-handed, I'm placing 1st 17% of the time, 2nd 25% of the time...so in the 6-handed, if I increase my 1st % I'm going to greatly increase my ROI, obviously...I don't know, I like to think I'm pretty good HU, and there's only a few times where I've considered myself outplayed, but lately I have been coming in 2nd more than 1st...so I'll try something different...

10-handed, I'm pretty happy with...6-haned, I'll try your early aggressivness plan and I'll let you know how that works out...