PM: Is'nt Folding Equity Just A Theorum Of Poker?

[Desdia72]

the more i think about Folding Equity, the more it's sounds like a subject that should have been a chapter in Theory Of Poker.

when i think of folding equity, i think of a poker theorum that would word as, "The chips you gain on one hand by getting someone to laydown theirs are chips that can be used when folding in situations where you have to laydown a hand".

i.e. the blinds are 100/200, i am the shortstack in the BB with (1000) with 4 players left. there is one limper, the SB completes, i go all-in with x-hand, everybody folds, i gain my 200 back (BB) plus the limp and SB money 400, leaving me with 1600 in chips. the very next hand i am sitting with 10 10 in the SB (100) when a big stack (tight-aggressive) in early postion raises 1000 preflop and another big stack (LAG) next to me reraises to 2000. facing a big raise preflop and an even bigger reraise, would folding in this spot have anything to do with FOLDING EQUITY?

[PrayingMantis]

"Theory of Poker", despite its general name, is much more relevant for limit games, IMO, rather than for NL and surely rather than NL tournamnets or SNGs. Some very important concepts that are critical for SNG Poker, are not discussed at all. Short-stacks one-table NL tournament is a unique animal, not much was written about it.

However, DS does deal with "folding equity" (without calling it in that name) when he writes about raising, bluffs and semi-bluffs. But the perspective is mainly from a limit point-of-view, and it is not much relevant for SNGs, where considerations such as survival, bubble play, being extremely short or big stack and many others, are essential for decision making.

[ QUOTE ]
when i think of folding equity, i think of a poker theorum that would word as, "The chips you gain on one hand by getting someone to laydown theirs are chips that can be used when folding in situations where you have to laydown a hand".

i.e. the blinds are 100/200, i am the shortstack in the BB with (1000) with 4 players left. there is one limper, the SB completes, i go all-in with x-hand, everybody folds, i gain my 200 back (BB) plus the limp and SB money 400, leaving me with 1600 in chips. the very next hand i am sitting with 10 10 in the SB (100) when a big stack (tight-aggressive) in early postion raises 1000 preflop and another big stack (LAG) next to me reraises to 2000. facing a big raise preflop and an even bigger reraise, would folding in this spot have anything to do with FOLDING EQUITY?

[/ QUOTE ]

I must say I don't quite undertand what you mean in your example and the theorem you are talking about. I'd say that the chips you gain "through folding equity" (i.e, pots you win uncontested), are helpul for you in many ways. You have more chips to raise with, threaten others, play more hands, go through more blinds, and of course: go to a showdown against a shorter stack and still survive if you lose. All these are very important. In other words: CHIPS are important. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, thinking a bit more about your example: maybe you mean that chips you earn when others fold to you, allow you to fold good but not great hands when there is a lot of action in front, while if your stack was shorter it was a situation you couldn't get away from (since you must double-up and you are desperate, and get good odds, for instance).

It's an interesting perspective, and it is generally correct, IMO. When you have a bigger stack you have less reasons to make desperate moves in order to survive, and you can save yourself some dangarous showdowns.

I hope this makes sense.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
"Theory of Poker", despite its general name, is much more relevant for limit games, IMO, rather than for NL and surely rather than NL tournamnets or SNGs. Some very important concepts that are critical for SNG Poker, are not discussed at all. Short-stacks one-table NL tournament is a unique animal, not much was written about it.

However, DS does deal with "folding equity" (without calling it in that name) when he writes about raising, bluffs and semi-bluffs. But the perspective is mainly from a limit point-of-view, and it is not much relevant for SNGs, where considerations such as survival, bubble play, being extremely short or big stack and many others, are essential for decision making.

[ QUOTE ]
when i think of folding equity, i think of a poker theorum that would word as, "The chips you gain on one hand by getting someone to laydown theirs are chips that can be used when folding in situations where you have to laydown a hand".

i.e. the blinds are 100/200, i am the shortstack in the BB with (1000) with 4 players left. there is one limper, the SB completes, i go all-in with x-hand, everybody folds, i gain my 200 back (BB) plus the limp and SB money 400, leaving me with 1600 in chips. the very next hand i am sitting with 10 10 in the SB (100) when a big stack (tight-aggressive) in early postion raises 1000 preflop and another big stack (LAG) next to me reraises to 2000. facing a big raise preflop and an even bigger reraise, would folding in this spot have anything to do with FOLDING EQUITY?

[/ QUOTE ]

I must say I don't quite undertand what you mean in your example and the theorem you are talking about. I'd say that the chips you gain "through folding equity" (i.e, pots you win uncontested), are helpul for you in many ways. You have more chips to raise with, threaten others, play more hands, go through more blinds, and of course: go to a showdown against a shorter stack and still survive if you lose. All these are very important. In other words: CHIPS are important. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, thinking a bit more about your example: maybe you mean that chips you earn when others fold to you, allow you to fold good but not great hands when there is a lot of action in front, while if your stack was shorter it was a situation you couldn't get away from (since you must double-up and you are desperate, and get good odds, for instance).

It's an interesting perspective, and it is generally correct, IMO. When you have a bigger stack you have less reasons to make desperate moves in order to survive, and you can save yourself some dangarous showdowns.

I hope this makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. every sense you brought up that FE thread a couple of weeks ago, i've had FE on my mind alot, thinking of all the different ways that it manifests itself and how it can be applied. although my ITM% has dropped a little and my ROI has dropped substantially from earlier in my current batch of SNGs, i feel i'm playing some of the best poker that i've ever played. part of my success and ease with playing now has to do with FE. i think about it alot when i'm playing. your examples are better than mine and hit it right on the head.

[jedi]

I think you have folding equity confused with survival. When you steal the blinds, you've bought yourself another orbit. That has nothing to do with folding equity.

Folding Equity refers to your equity in the pot based on the chance that the other guy will fold. You can add this to your pot equity based on the value of your cards vs. his and decide what to do from there. Late in tournaments, adding folding equity to the equation changes a check to a bet for you.

[Desdia72]

back to the drawing board. pot equity, folding equity..good
goobly-goo. /images/graemlins/grin.gif