Word of Warning to home games

[slamdunkpro]

There have been several raids across the Maryland / DC / Virginia region in the past week or so. This seems to be a fairly concentrated enforcement action. The one common denominator that we have been able to find is that all the raided games were either listed on or got players from http://www.homepokergames.com/.

This is not to say that homepokergames.com is rating out to the police. I’m not implying or suggesting that in any way. I think it’s more a case of the police discovering a nice neat laundry list of games to raid.

Watch yourselves.

[2planka]

Can you substantiate or quantify this? Are there news/web articles or reports?

Not questioning your post. I want to see how these things are reported in the media and hear the rationale.

Were the hosts of the raided games collecting rakes/vigorish? If so I can see why the games may be of interest. How big were the games (stakes and/or headcount)?

[MrGo]

Also been some raids in the Milwaukee area. Be careful.

[2planka]

Is that the one I read about in CP a couple issues ago? Some dude running a game in a bowling alley or something? That guy received warnings to cease and desist, and he collected vig for it.

Still, you'd think the man would have more important things to worry about.

[rocky]

Nothing illegal about a home hame in Virginia unless you are cutting the pot .

[MrGo]

No, it wasn't that one. But the authorities are taking a closer eye to things, in Milwaukee anyway.

[slamdunkpro]

I haven't seen anything in the media, but I do have first hand knowledge of three events.

One was kind of silly, they were running 15 tables with tournaments and up to 20/40 3 days a week. Plus they were advertizing in the paper.

One was a 2 table game, low stakes, the other was 2-3 tables medium / high stakes.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing illegal about a home hame in Virginia unless you are cutting the pot .

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite so. IF your game has more than 2k going across the table in 24 hrs then you can be charged with a class 6 felony.
VSC18.2-328.

[rocky]

Thanks for the info. I don't think any of the home games I play at would fall under THAT category for quite a while yet.

[kkiely2]

hi, i run homepokergames.com. It's pretty obvious i don't want police anywhere near my site. I received an email from someone in VA asking to de-list his game because it got busted. I assumed it was the same one.

My position on home games is this: if it is a raked game then i think most people dont have too much sympathy for those who get caught. Personally, i dont have any problem with people raking home games. I have attended raked home games, but i prefer not to play in them purely for financial reasons.

For "normal" home games it's a different story. Home poker games have a long tradition in America of being a very safe social activity where people can have fun. Unfortunately, our government doesn't see it that way. Police officers are like anyone else who have jobs - if there is no work for them to do then there is no reason for them to have a job. So they find anything to arrest people for. People who host home games on my site seem to fall into 2 groups: the law-abiding Stepford citizens who are hesistant to list on my site, and the i-dont-give-a-s***-about-the-police group. There's tons of games out there who aren't listing on my site out of fear - i can tell by the paranoia of the people who actually do list. It is merely a matter of risk-tolerance - the ones that are listing on my site are willing to take the risk and accept any consequences.

I dont host a game but i would be in the second group if i did. Personally, I wouldnt mind my game being busted. Busting 10 people for gambling for low stakes in your own home has the opportunity to turn yourself into a martyr. I would just go to the media to get sympathy. Poker is a skill game that is played by 100 million people in this country. But most people don't have the energy/interest/courage to do this. Admittedly, my hate for the government runs stronger than most. Having cops coming into my home to seize my money would piss me off. But the fact is, things aren't going to change unless people get mad. The more raids there are, then the more people will get mad. The cost that the busted home games bear is a nessesary cost to achieve the future freedom we want. Hopefully it will not be for nothing and any raids that happen around the country will be the catalyst for change.

Also, I am planning major upgrades to my site and may try to find a technological tool that would help the hosts' anonymity.

if anyone wants to contact me with any info (including police info) then email me at kkiely AT aol.com

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
hi, i run homepokergames.com. It's pretty obvious i don't want police anywhere near my site. I received an email from someone in VA asking to de-list his game because it got busted. I assumed it was the same one.

My position on home games is this: if it is a raked game then i think most people dont have too much sympathy for those who get caught. Personally, i dont have any problem with people raking home games. I have attended raked home games, but i prefer not to play in them purely for financial reasons.

For "normal" home games it's a different story. Home poker games have a long tradition in America of being a very safe social activity where people can have fun. Unfortunately, our government doesn't see it that way. Police officers are like anyone else who have jobs - if there is no work for them to do then there is no reason for them to have a job. So they find anything to arrest people for. People who host home games on my site seem to fall into 2 groups: the law-abiding Stepford citizens who are hesistant to list on my site, and the i-dont-give-a-s***-about-the-police group. There's tons of games out there who aren't listing on my site out of fear - i can tell by the paranoia of the people who actually do list. It is merely a matter of risk-tolerance - the ones that are listing on my site are willing to take the risk and accept any consequences.

I dont host a game but i would be in the second group if i did. Personally, I wouldnt mind my game being busted. Busting 10 people for gambling for low stakes in your own home has the opportunity to turn yourself into a martyr. I would just go to the media to get sympathy. Poker is a skill game that is played by 100 million people in this country. But most people don't have the energy/interest/courage to do this. Admittedly, my hate for the government runs stronger than most. Having cops coming into my home to seize my money would piss me off. But the fact is, things aren't going to change unless people get mad. The more raids there are, then the more people will get mad. The cost that the busted home games bear is a nessesary cost to achieve the future freedom we want. Hopefully it will not be for nothing and any raids that happen around the country will be the catalyst for change.

Also, I am planning major upgrades to my site and may try to find a technological tool that would help the hosts' anonymity.

if anyone wants to contact me with any info (including police info) then email me at kkiely AT aol.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey dude, glad you post here and at least read here. Why don't you retire from that shilthole known as RGP and come post where real men post.

In all seriousness, good post, nice site.

It's unfortunate that the police have to take time raiding raked or certainly un-raked home games when there are Pushers, rapists and murders walking around like it's their world.

[Cubswin]

Slamdunk

I believe your info is incorrect.


[ QUOTE ]
§ 18.2-334. Exception to article; private residences.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to make it illegal to participate in a game of chance conducted in a private residence, provided such private residence is not commonly used for such games of chance and there is no operator as defined in subsection 4 of § 18.2-325.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
§ 18.2-325. Definitions
4. "Operator" includes any person, firm or association of persons, who conducts, finances, manages, supervises, directs or owns all or part of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation.

[/ QUOTE ]
My only question for lawyers out there is what does "commonly used" mean?

If anyone wants to figure out their state laws on gambling go here (http://www.gambling-law-us.com) .

regards
cubs

[Cubswin]

There is a thread over at RGP about this. Direct Link (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=MPG.1b87023ec48f3d7498a6f0%40news-40.giganews.com&rnum=33&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dg:thl1163458361d%26dq%3D%26hl%3Den%26 lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3DMPG.1b87023ec48f3d7498a6f 0%2540news-40.giganews.com%26rnum%3D33)

A poster at RGP actually wrote an email to the Fairfax Police Chief. The email and responce from the police chief follow:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan S. Slick [mailto:onyx_hokie@hi-lo.not]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 1:32 PM
To: FCPD Chief, Fairfax County Police
Subject: Congratulations

I have been reading online today about your Department's recent raid of a home poker game in Centreville.

I would like to congratulate you, sir, and your Department, on keeping Fairfax County in general and the Centreville area in specific so free of drugs, murder, theft, rape, etc.. that the efforts of the police can be so finely focused on the dangerous element represented by poker players.



-------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: Congratulations
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 12:29:19 -0400
From: "FCPD Chief, Fairfax County Police"
<ChiefFairfaxCountyPolice@FairfaxCounty.gov>
To: "Bryan S. Slick" <onyx_hokie@hi-lo.not>

Mr. Slick,

In reference to your recent email, the case you are speaking of is currently under investigation and I cannot comment directly on it. I can tell you that the police department does not target friendly home poker games, in which the "house" does not get a cut of the stakes.

We investigate gambling organizations, in which the organizers receive large cuts of money. These cases often evolve following complaints from family members, after someone has lost a large sum of money or the family's savings.

Some of these cases result in additional violations, as once someone is in debt they may be forced to pay high interest loans and risk getting assaulted if they do not pay.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of how we use our resources.

Sincerely,

David M. Rohrer, Colonel
Chief of Police

[random]

Good response from the cop.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, our government doesn't see it that way. Police officers are like anyone else who have jobs - if there is no work for them to do then there is no reason for them to have a job. So they find anything to arrest people for.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you posting here. While your intetions are good I think you anger might be a little misguided. The police are merely enforcing the law....which is their job. If you do not agree with the laws, working to get the laws changed would be much more productive and make much more sense than trying to start some sort of Poker Players v. United States of America battle.


[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I wouldnt mind my game being busted.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you were convicted of a felony I think you would probably change your mind.


[ QUOTE ]
I would just go to the media to get sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really sure what this would accomplish. Would "the media" give you money to buy a house after the bank turns you down for being a convicted felon?


[ QUOTE ]
Having cops coming into my home to seize my money would piss me off.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would think so /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Seriously though, starting some imaginary turf war with the cops is not going to fix this. Either be a little more discreet about the rake, don't rake, or work towards making small raked games legal.

-tpir

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe your info is incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you say that when we are both quoting from the same sounce: www.gambling-law-us.com. (http://www.gambling-law-us.com.)

If you read into code a little further

18.2-328 onducting illegal gambling operation; penalties.

The operator of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony. However, any such operator who engages in an illegal gambling operation which (i) has been or remains in substantially continuous operation for a period in excess of thirty days or (ii) has gross revenue of $2,000 or more in any single day shall be fined not more than $20,000 and imprisoned not less than one year nor more than ten years.
As used in this section, the term "gross revenue" means the total amount of illegal gambling transactions handled, dealt with, received by or placed with such operation, as distinguished from any net figure or amount from which deductions are taken, without regard to whether money or any other thing of value actually changes hands.

The other interesting statue is: 18.2-333. Exceptions to article; certain sporting events.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent any contest of speed or skill between men, animals, fowl or vehicles, where participants may receive prizes or different percentages of a purse, stake or premium dependent upon whether they win or lose or dependent upon their position or score at the end of such contest.


I guess it means that poker is legal / illegal depending on whci way the wind blows in VA

[Cubswin]

Slamdunk

§ 18.2-328 would not even apply to a non-raked home game so long as there is no 'operator' of that game. It doesnt matter what the stakes of the game are or how much money crosses the table... as long as it is not raked or have an 'operator' it doesnt fall under the aforementioned law.

I believe that non-raked homegame would be protected under the article you mentioned (§ 18.2-333) if VA defines poker as a game of skill and it would also be protected under § 18.2-334 if the Commonwealth of VA defines poker as a game of chance.

I still would like to know what 'commonly used' means in §18.2-334. I would also like to know if acting as the table banker for an unraked game would qualify you as a "persons, who conducts, finances, manages, supervises, directs or owns all or part of an illegal gambling enterprise, activity or operation". I dont think it would but maybe some lawyer types out there could chime in and enlighten us.

regards
cubs

[slamdunkpro]

I suspect that both “operator” and “commonly used” are left intentionally vague so as to give the state some latitude when it comes to prosecuting individuals. In the Virginia case, event if no rake was being taken (and I never saw one) I’m sure that the homeowner will be prosecuted as an “operator” since there were multiple tables involved.

To go a step further there is a strong similarity to the 20 questions that the IRS gives you to ask to determine whether an individual is a contractor or an employee; the 20 questions that AA asks; or the 20 questions that GA asks. Since it’s in the IRS’s best interest for everyone to be an employee and it’s in AA’s and GA’s best interest to gain new members; everyone who takes the test is an employee, a drunk or a hopeless gambler.

8.2-325’s definition of an “operator” is in the same vein. Based on the broad wording of the definition anyone who hosts a home game could be declared an “operator”

[BusterFlush]

The examples you cite of busted games sound like professional ops and not home games.

[Mojo Tooth]

Here's a link to a Milwaukee newspaper story about the dude busted recently:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/aug04/248776.asp
[ QUOTE ]
Leone and six other men and a woman were arrested July 25 in a home in the 6300 block of Riverdale Lane on allegations of participating in an illegal gambling game.

According to the criminal complaint, when police entered the residence they found more than $8,000 in cash, poker chips, a card table, cocaine and a handgun.

The criminal complaint states that Greendale police found individuals playing Texas hold 'em, a type of poker game popular in professional tournaments shown on cable television. There was also a professional dealer, the complaint says.


[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno about you, but at my home game nobody brings more than $50, nobody brings a gun, and hardly EVER does anybody bring cocaine. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Slacker13]

I have been waiting for this to happen. I've thought
about some post's getting into the hands of other orgs such as the IRS & FBI. How much of what is said in this forum could actually be used against you at some point?

If these bust's are a result of the cops looking this up on the internet then it's a sad fvcking day for the legal system when busting home poker games takes presidence over the many other much more severe crimes out there.

I would like to strap a lie detector to every cop and judge out there and ask them one question...have you ever played a home poker game? What do you think the results would be?
My guess would be that a very large percentage has played.

[MrGo]

Yeah that's the guy. He had issues prior to him getting busted. I didn't know they found cocaine and a gun in his place - yikes.

He's a damn good poker player though! lol

[Joe M]

Can we all say it is safe to say that almost all law enforcement nationwide looks into, and only into, situations where the operators/hosts of poker games and tournaments take a cut/rake? I think the letter from the Chief says it all!

[Jim Kuhn]

If police raided my home without any poker players but me they would find much more than $8,000 and a handgun. I have several handguns, more cash and several long guns. No drugs though. I am sure drugs could be found if I had one of my 20 player hold em tournies though.

Everyone should look into the Libertarian Party. We need less obtrusive big brother government and more common sense government. Please check out the Libertarian views here Libertarian views. (http://www.lp.org/issues/)

[skcubrats]

[ QUOTE ]
If police raided my home without any poker players but me they would find much more than $8,000 and a handgun. I have several handguns, more cash and several long guns. No drugs though. I am sure drugs could be found if I had one of my 20 player hold em tournies though.

Everyone should look into the Libertarian Party. We need less obtrusive big brother government and more common sense government. Please check out the Libertarian views here Libertarian views. (http://www.lp.org/issues/)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great suggestion John. All the other parties seem so much the same. Use of their incumbent power is mostly to keep that power. Next priority is to keep control of the people and as much of the people's money as possible.

[Jim Kuhn]

The two party system sucks. They collude to rip off the taxpayers. Neither party cares about the working class citizen.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4U
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[alpine0000]

half of you fools have no clue what your talking about, and over exaggerate and over-act to the smallest thing.
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif
yes one poker game was raided. you act like every game in the tri state area got raided!! stop buggin out, go gossip about your aunt sally or something.
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif
all i have to say is, i better not find out who is behind it!
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[slamdunkpro]

Sometimes a little paranoia is a good thing.

In fact three games were raided, not just one. In addition, I was served with a search warrant tonight looking for “felony gambling in progress, gambling equipment or paraphernalia, or (and I loved this one) charity gaming without proper permits”

Nothing illegal was found since I took action based on the past 3 incidents. The police apologized and left.

[jdl22]

Just to take the other side of this, doesn't organized crime have a heavy hand in underground gambling rings? While I don't know the specifics of these cases if there are major games with several tables and lots of rake being taken it would seem like the police would be interested.

As for the home games that I will be playing with fellow grad students where pots get as large as 2 bucks the men with copper badges shouldn't care too much.

[Lottery Larry]

Is this the game raid you were referring to?

http://64.4.18.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=3832c35976028b74e464b5744ec464 8e&lat=1094122992&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ec onnectionnewspapers%2ecom%2farticle%2easp%3farticl e%3d39511%26cat%3d104

Based on the picture, someone probably complained about the lack of parking on game nights.

[2planka]

Problem with your link, I think.

Does anyone have a transcript of the Fox News story?

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this the game raid you were referring to?

http://64.4.18.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=3832c35976028b74e464b5744ec464 8e&lat=1094122992&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2ec onnectionnewspapers%2ecom%2farticle%2easp%3farticl e%3d39511%26cat%3d104

Based on the picture, someone probably complained about the lack of parking on game nights.

[/ QUOTE ]

See I think it's this reason why most game get busted - inproper parking in small lots. Neighbors will notice the heavy traffic on most nights and will start to get suspicious. If you invite people you know and can trust, you should have no worries.

[Lottery Larry]

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=39511&cat=104

[2planka]

.

[slamdunkpro]

According to the Fox new story the neigbors were without a clue that this was going on.

[MIKSEN]

This was hardly a Home Game this was an underground Casino.
These people raked 40k a month, If it comes to getting busted by the law I dont think they want the friendly weekly game in which many law enforcement personnel particicpate as well. In Florida if you start something that big you might get scalped by one of the Indian Reservations.

[vertigo]

does anyone know what the consequences would be for those actually playing in the game when it is busted?

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
This was hardly a Home Game this was an underground Casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this was a 2 table home game - A social gathering. The media & police have blown this way out of scope.

[ QUOTE ]
These people raked 40k a month

[/ QUOTE ]

That figure is HIGHLY inflated.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
These people raked 40k a month

[/ QUOTE ]

That figure is HIGHLY inflated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most news stories are highly inflated. It makes me angry when the media hypes up the story to make themselves look better.

Can you imagine Bill Walton as a news anchor? Every story would be the biggest story of the year - lol
"And in other news, a man robbed a bank at the corner of Main and State. This was a biggest robbery this state has ever seen!"

[3rdEye]

[ QUOTE ]
If police raided my home without any poker players but me they would find much more than $8,000 and a handgun. I have several handguns, more cash and several long guns. No drugs though. I am sure drugs could be found if I had one of my 20 player hold em tournies though.

Everyone should look into the Libertarian Party. We need less obtrusive big brother government and more common sense government. Please check out the Libertarian views here Libertarian views. (http://www.lp.org/issues/)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell yes! Nice to see a fellow Libertarian on these boards. I figured there had to be one out there somewhere.

[3rdEye]

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that anyone who doesn't collect a rake is in no danger of being arrested for hosting a home game.

[MIKSEN]

That could very well be true, Media will blow things up as will the police in order to justify this raid, if in fact it was social with two tables then <font color="red">"SHAME ON THE POLICE </font> , my comments were based on the article. Should have thought it could be inflated. According to the article, this happened everyday, is this also inflated?

Anyone know the consequences to the players at the house??

[2planka]

the article indicated that the participants were charged with misdemeanor participation in gambling. My guess is that they'll pressure some players to fink on the hosts.

[rdu $teve]

If your running a casino in your house, where its illegal, you shouldnt complain about being busted. 15 tables, pulling a rake? Thats not some friends getting together to have some fun. I've played in some larger tourneys here in Raleigh, NC (I have one this weekend), but these have no rake. Nor do our larger cash games, though we have had a few Gs on the table several times.

For those of you living in NC check this one out

[ QUOTE ]
Noelle Talley of the North Carolina Attorney General's Office said that it would be up to local district attorneys to prosecute online poker players.

In the past, larger games that involved high stakes and criminal activity have been shut down, but having the guys from work over for a round of cards is not on law enforcement radar screens, said Colon Willoughby, North Carolina's Wake County district attorney.



[/ QUOTE ]
from: Raleigh News &amp; Observer article (http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/business/9558809.htm)

I happen to know that the DA, Willoughby, host games himself, with a fair amount of cash on the table. So, find out what the local veiws are before publicizing anything above the nickel &amp; dime game.

[mrraise]

The Centreville game had 2 tables and games were hosted 3 nights a week. It was not a casino, just a bunch of people who like to play poker.