AK hand at Foxwoods

[Tommy Angelo]

$20-40 at Foxwoods. I openraised from the cutoff with AK. The guy on the button was spazzy and had been talking and lying to me for hours even though I had hardly even looked at him. He was a very tight player preflop which is why, when the seat on my left opened up, and I saw him coming from the must-move-game, I stayed put instead of sliding over.

The last couple times that I had raised from the cutoff, he made a comment about it and got a little huffy, and then finally folded his button anyway.

He was sending reliable preflop tells almost every hand before it was my turn to act, except for this AK hand, which made me think he was undecided at that time. He called my raise with a fake non reraise or something thrown on at the end. One of the blinds called and three of us saw the flop.

The flop was A-7-6 rainbow. The blind checked, I bet, the button raised, the blind folded, and it was headsup with the action back to me. At this point, all the above paragraphs of profiling and history meant nothing and had no impact on anything. I was done with any and all thinking and planning. I would call his flop raise and checkcall all the way (unless I made a full house, in which case I would check the river and raise if he bet.) I had no interest in what he had and I had no plans to spend any energy or chips to find out. I was more rigid than a calling station, more like a calling statue. This is how I played lots of times out of position at Foxwoods and I think it really freaked some people out after a while. I know I am going to check the turn before it comes, and I already know if I am going to call their bet, or fold to it, and either way, it happens just as fast, and then the river comes, and again, it doesn't matter if they had checked behind on the turn, or if I had called the turn with a draw that missed, or that got there, or maybe I decided to call him down with ace-high, or whatever, doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure that my intentions -- in position or out of it -- are as well masked as they have ever been in my life, when I'm doing the check check checky thing out of position. And sometimes I check the river and they bluff and I call. And sometimes I check the river and they value bet and I call and win, or lose. The only time I have to show a loser is if it goes check-check on the river after the opponent missed a bet.

Back to the AK hand. The turn came a non-rainbow low card. I checked, he bet, I called. The river was a non-flush ace. I had trip aces, king kicker. I checked, he bet, I called. He said I missed and he turned over 9-8 of hearts (he had backdoored a flush draw to go along with his flopped open-ender).

Some of the things I like about this checky style of play when first to act in foreign countries are that when I’m beat, that is, when the guy does make a straight, or a flush, or he flopped a set, or he had me outflopped or outkicked all along, or I had him outkicked and he caught a three-outter on the turn or river to win, all those times, my secret new goofy style remains secret, because all I did was checkcall with a loser that nobody sees, and sometimes, like what happened after this AK hand, it throws so much confusion into later hands that I only wish the cards would allow for more opportunities to exploit it. Dang cards. I can't wait for them all day. So I wait for the button instead.



Tommy

[BarronVangorToth]

Nice synopsis, Tommy, as always.

I'm sure the guy was thrilled that he put in $140 to find out he shouldn't've called your pre-flop raise in the first place in his wanting to -- one day -- play his button, dagnabbit.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
The only time I have to show a loser is if it goes check-check on the river after the opponent missed a bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

you should come to nyc where the last aggressor has to show first. you'd almost never have to show out of position!

--turnipmosnter

[JasonP530]

I guess it is ok given that he had that specific hand. Dont you feel like youre missing value if he doesnt have that sort of hand? If he will call you with AQ if you raise him, then youve missed out. Against certain players, you can checkraise the turn and check the river, and they will still bluff at it. I sometimes like going into a calling shell too, seems like it saves you money when youre behind, and lets them bluff, I just feel dumb when he value bets his AT and Ive missed a raise.

[Barry]

Yeah but then he'll have to show a lot more hands when he's on the button and checks behind on the river.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Dont you feel like youre missing value if he doesnt have that sort of hand?"

In the short run, by the hand, I think I am making extra money because I think that the missed bets are more than overbalance by saved bets, induced bluffs, free cards, and free showdowns (when I would have checkfolded a winner on the turn or river to a bet). In the long run, playing this way keeps me perfectly tiltless and my opponents perfectly confused. It's hard to lose with both those things working.

Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

ME: The only time I have to show a loser is if it goes check-check on the river after the opponent missed a bet.

TURNIPMONSTER: you should come to nyc where the last aggressor has to show first. you'd almost never have to show out of position!

BARRY: Yeah but then he'll have to show a lot more hands when he's on the button and checks behind on the river.


Hi Barry. You said what I was gonna! In fact, when I read Turnipmonster's post, the first thing I thought was, man, that rule alone would be enough to keep me from playing in a game that used it, because my main weapon -- the classic bet-the-turn-and-check-behind-on-the-river-and-then-never-have-to-show-a-loser -- would be shot to shiitake. If I was forced to play in a game with that rule, it's hard to imagine what sort of altered betting tendencies would result.

Is this rule spreading? If so, I need to know now, so that I can do some pre-lobbying with the local cardroom managers to keep it confined to already infected areas.

(I'm not saying it's a bad rule in general. Rules is rules and they are all the same: made up. I'm just saying I think it would cost me money.)

Tommy

[Barry]

See Tommy, I did learn something from you /images/graemlins/wink.gif!

The only place that I have seen it was at the Borg' in AC. But then, they have a bunch of other screwy rules there too!

P.S. I would have put in a raise somewhere though

[Robk]

Good points but I disagree with your example. It's too likely your hand is good here against another made hand for me to not put in bets.

[BarronVangorToth]

I haven't encountered this "rule" in any casino on the East Coast -- anywhere in Atlantic City, Foxwoods, Mohegan Suns (when they were open), nor Turning Stone -- however, I do know that it is a rule in some of the illegal gambling clubs / card rooms in NYC where they have "house rules" such as this, said rules that don't exist most other places.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the rule spreading ... people are invariably anti-change.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[mplspoker]

Tommy if he is VERY TIGHT preflop what hands are you beat with on the flop? AA - that is it. If he is very tight he probably wouldn't call a raise with a smallish pocket pair. Got to make him pay for his draw and/or worse hand. If you had AQ or AJ that is different but you have AK you mind as well get the value you from it and get your money in there with the best of it most of the time. How happy would you be about a check on the turn by him?

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the things I like about this checky style of play when first to act in foreign countries are that....

[/ QUOTE ]

Best, and most enjoyable, prefatory clause in the post. I got a deep warm smile from it anyway.

-Zeno

[Gabe]

It is actually the rule at the Mirage and Bellagio and probabaly several other place. It's just that first player to act in betting just naturally seems to show first. I'd let sleeping dogs lie.

[Boopotts]

I don't see how you can't check raise the river. If he flopped a set, well, God bless him. in fact, thinking it over I don't see how you can just check and call this hand all the way through unless you have a compelling reason to believe that your opponent is an incorrigible bluffer. For all intents and purposes you flopped the fourth nut (OK, maybe the fifth)-- a hand which generally deserves to be played in accordance with it's relative strength.

Also, I think you're placing way too much importance on table image. Nobody notices that you're playing TPTK oddly, and if they do notice they're not going to let their observation inform their play.

[Mikey]

I'm much more interested in the cold call with 85o on the button?

How about a lenghty post on that hand?

[Tommy Angelo]

"Also, I think you're placing way too much importance on table image. Nobody notices that you're playing TPTK oddly, and if they do notice they're not going to let their observation inform their play."

If any of that were true, I would not be able to stay ahead of the rake.


Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

"Tommy if he is VERY TIGHT preflop what hands are you beat with on the flop?"

I didn't give it any thought.

"If he is very tight he probably wouldn't call a raise with a smallish pocket pair."

But he did in fact call with 9-8, a hand I believe he would normally fold for two bets in a small pot without a thought. I think he called before the flop with 9-8 because he wanted to put a beat on specifically me. He had already commented several times to me and others about some bettings decisions I had made that he judged as peculiar. After I check-called on the river on this hand, and turned over AK, he was so upset I felt a little nervous sitting right next to him, like he was about to haul off and punch me. I'm not quite sure how all that calculates out EV-wise, but I do think I was in a much better state than he was to adapt profitably on the subsequent hands.

"How happy would you be about a check on the turn by him?"

Neither happy or sad no matter what he did on any street.


Tommy

[mmcd]

[ QUOTE ]
After I check-called on the river on this hand, and turned over AK, he was so upset I felt a little nervous sitting right next to him, like he was about to haul off and punch me.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[JasonP530]

Tommy, if he checks behind you on the turn, are you going to lead the river, or check to induce a bluff? If he is so tight, would you put him on a draw there, and check the river no matter what, or think he has a made hand and lead no matter what? just wondering.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Tommy,

It's been a long time since we last played in Vegas together.

I do not usually post comments or hands on this forum, but recently I decided to because some friends of mine suggested it would be beneficial to share hands to gather more insight.

I like the way you played the hand throughout. You maximized every possible value for it.

Sometimes, against certain opponents I will also check-call all the way (even with the nuts) just to throw other players off, but also to see the other players cards. If they are on a bluff, semi-bluff then I want to know what cards they choose to do it with. It drives the good players wild when I do this, but it has such future value that I am doing more often than not. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[MMMMMM]

"After I check-called on the river on this hand, and turned over AK, he was so upset I felt a little nervous sitting right next to him, like he was about to haul off and punch me."


Couldn't you have irritated him even further by check-raising the river? (besides, then you wouldn't have had to even show your hand)

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
After I check-called on the river on this hand, and turned over AK, he was so upset I felt a little nervous sitting right next to him, like he was about to haul off and punch me.

[/ QUOTE ]

And justifiably so. How dare you let a man bluff off his chips like that.

[elysium]

hi tommy

fascinating tommy. tommy i have a tooth ache like nothing else. i don't think any yous people have ever had a tooth ache like the one i'm having right now. it comes in cycles people. i get hit every half hour, right on the money. the tooth aches from the top left tip of my head, down through my left eye, onto the tooth itself, and then follows through my lower molers (the tooth that needs root canal is an upper moler mind you) down through all my lower molers, into my left side jaw, and the pain hovers there. it feels like i have a glow of pain hovering around, and then, like right now, it vanishes.

in exactly one half hour, it will return again as a spike, and radiate downward into a little glow ball of pain on the left side of my jaw.

ahhh, i can't believe it. the pain is gone. where am i? tommy is that you? oh gee. it'll take me a half hour to get through this post tommy. and it would be the pain talking.

i'm scheduled for root canal tommorow. giving an unbiased opinion on a hand that strong being played that meekly requires root canal. it would be the pain talking. tommorow tommy is nitrous oxide monday. you'll fare better. then, it'll be the gas talking. i might even like your play. i've never had nitrous oxide before. shoot, i might not even give a damn.