3/6 Moving to 5/10

[daveymck]

Have got the bankroll to play 5/10 now but looking at Party it seems as though 5/10 is a bit of a lost level for people like me looking for full handed games, very little table selection and some averaging 4bb a hand which is a waste of time.

My best option seems to be continue playing 3/6 while monitoring 5/10 and taking a shot when a loose table is on the go, although the waiting list is normally huge so the table texture has chance to have changed when you actually get to sit down.

I have received SSH yesterday but will finally get my hands on it tonight when I get back form my working away from home. At the moment I am pretty tight (14% vpip) and not as agressive as I should be (6%pfr) and at the moment I am focusing on increasing my agressiveness particulary post flop.

However with the above at this point I dont think I am lag enough at this point to be successful in the 6 max games which seem to be the norm at 5/10.

I am unsure if the way forward is keep playing 3/6 and miss out 5/10 altogether and move up to 15/30 once my bankroll gets there in 4-6 months time.

Any comments on the 5/10 level how the full table and 6 max compare, how the 5/10 full compare to 3/6 full (I suspect there are more better players % wise at 5/10 due to the poor table selection) or on missing it out gratefully received.

[balkii]

hi dave

the 5/10 is pretty different from the 3/6 IMO. i wouldnt say to skip 5/10 altogether but I dont see the need to become a "5/10 player." i moved up to 5/10 and played that exclusively for a while but it was a bit of an uphill battle, so I went back to 3/6 for a while. now I am back at 5/10 but it kinda goes like this:

am - pretty much only play 3/6
afternoon - some 3/6, some 5/10
night - try to find some good 5/10 games

because the games get better throughout the day.

in PT I have 33% players/flop at 3/6 and about 27% at 5/10. so there is a difference.

the need for game selection is much greater. I really hate attempting to "find" a good game online, only to have the table completely change textures within ten minutes of sitting down, from the constant turnover in online play. so I dont waste my time anymore. I click "first available table with 9 players" and sit down. when I do this at 3/6 I usually dont get up unless the table is especially bad; there are usually at LEAST 3 players playing more than ~45% of their hands. But I find I have to get up more often at 5/10. I would frequently find myself at table where I was a/the favorite, but when the loosest player at the table is playing 33% VPIP and the next guy is at 25%, its kind of a waste of time. you make most of your money from the really bad players, not a bunch of mediocre ones.

[flopmonster]

I have never used Party, but if you would be willing to make the switch, Pacifics 5/10 games are as soft as my livingroom couch.

[jt1]

I'm not qualified to answer your questions, but that never stopped me before. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

First off there are other sites than party. I've heard Ultimate bet has good table selection at $5/10, though, I don't know if PT takes Ultimates' hands histories.

Secondly, the 6 max game is completely different. Learn how to play it at $1/2 before playing it at $5/10.

Thirdly, I think that your PFR is very low. What aren't you raising with and from what positions? My guess is that you are a mouse, and should probably work on tossing those chips in there before moving up. But on the other hand, you are winning so there's no extra incentive for not learning while making more money.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is that you are a mouse

[/ QUOTE ]


dare i see a phil hellmuth reference in the SS forum?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Pacifics 5/10 games are as soft as my livingroom couch.



[/ QUOTE ]

Can you multi-table at Pacific? Do they take credit card?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
dare i see a phil hellmuth reference in the SS forum?



[/ QUOTE ]

Is he the one that came up with that? It's a pretty clever nickname, but I used it because it's the symbol given for tight passive in PT.

[daveymck]

I will probably know better after reading SSH but lack of raising comes mainly I think from not raising with Axs and high suited connectors in late positions after a number of limpers. I am also probably a bit too tight in late positions when folded to me, but somthing I am working on.

I also have not been raising with hands like AQo AJo, KQo etc in Mid position following a couple of limpers but I think thats the correct play. I also have issues with hands like A10o and KJo which I tend to play weak tight pre flop but again its an area to improve on.

I dont think I am suited to the 6 max games so maybe looking at other sites is the way to go either that or increasing my tables (4 currently) to improve win rate. Pacific is no good as you cannot multi table there.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I also have not been raising with hands like AQo AJo, KQo etc in Mid position following a couple of limpers but I think thats the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see why limping would be a good play. You want leverage against those already in and you want everyone else behind you to fold. Raising will help you do both these things. Furthermore, if you limp AQo and someone behind you raises with A10 and neither of you hit, he will take down the pot, not you. And lastly, every good poster on this site says to always raise those hands.

[daveymck]

I have been following the suggestions in HEP and (maybe I need to reread it) that the suggestion in there is to limp with these hands after early position limpers. With AQ if I am second in the pot then I will raise but if there have been 2-3 limpers before me I tend to limp behind. Obviously if I hit then I get agressive on the flop.

I'll obviously be reviewing my pre flop play while reading SSH.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been following the suggestions in HEP and (maybe I need to reread it) that the suggestion in there is to limp with these hands after early position limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

If HEP and HEFAP the same book? If it is then I think I know why he suggest this. HEFAP is a guide to mid level games where, I've been told, the players are better. Consequently, less players are apt to limp UTG with say J4s. I imagine that good players playing against other good players don't limp often in EP therefore there must be something up there sleeve if they are.

[daveymck]

No its a different book.

Check the books link in the left menu for a description and excerpt.

[MAxx]

i am currently stuck between the 3/6 and 5/10 levels of party. yes... table selection is much worse at 5/10. yes... these games can be much tougher. yes.... there are still a lot of bad players too. yes... it sounds like you need to get more aggressive preflop. yes... moving to 5/10 with proper bankroll. yes... consider other sites for 5/10.

[Bob T.]

How about this idea. Instead of selecting a table, let the table select you. Play enough shorthanded so that you are at least reasonable at it. Whenever you want to play, jump on to an empty table, and let it fill up. Frequently, the players that will join the table are the ones that want to play NOW. Those are also the ones with the least discipline, and will probably see the most flops.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[MoreWineII]

Party 5/10 players actually seem worse to me than 3/6 players. But, they are much more loose and aggressive which can make for some brutal swings. I've spoken to a few well-respected players here who have had trouble with that game. I had a lot of trouble with 5/10 myself after having had quite a bit of success @ 3/6. But if you're determined to give it a whirl, here are a few pieces of advice.

Play during the evenings so that game selection isn't too big of an issue.

I'd recommend a roll of *at least* 300BB. It will certainly ease some of the pressure. 100-150BB swings are not uncommon in this game.

You're going to need to start raising with hands that you aren't currently raising with. AQo, KQo, AJo, etc.

Expect the unexpected. I routinely see hands like K3o, 92s, 10-8s, etc through PF raises. Good over the long-term, can be devestating over the short term. You're going to take some spectactularly terrible beats. Keep your focus on the long term. Take notes. Compile buddy lists.

P.S. 6-max games are even worse than full 5/10 games. LAG-city. I'd skip those until you discipline yourself to be a bit more aggressive.

Good luck to you.

[sfer]

I'm sort of in the same boat. I've been playing 3/6 as my regular game since March or so and I've been rolled (well over 300 BBs) enough for 5/10, but I gotten distracted with bonus whoring or live play enough that I've never moved up online, even though I regularly play 5/10 live. I've talked to bdk3clash about this and his plan was to drop back down to 1/2 6-max for SH practice and then play 5/10 SH since those games look unambigiously better. I like that plan so much I've adopted it myself. I've already been reading everything on the shorthanded forum for a couple of weeks. Other than that, I'll still be playing it up at 3/6.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. 6-max games are even better than full 5/10 games. LAG-city. I'd skip those until you discipline yourself to be a bit more aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fixed your obvious typo.

[MoreWineII]

I meant worse as in even more extremely laggy, which in turn meant that the swings can be even more extreme which meant in turn that your patience will be more tested even more which in turn meant...



poker is fun...bye. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MarkD]

This is great advice and something I will be doing shortly because I do not feel as comfortable playing short handed as I want. I want to become more comfortable in both 6 max games and in 2-5 way games as well.

As for Party 5-10 full handed, I played it at night for a while (not many hands, only 15k or so) and it's beatable. It's different than 3/6 and blind play is more important. You need to steal more, isolate more, and defend a little better. Late position play becomes more important as well.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sort of in the same boat. I've been playing 3/6 as my regular game since March or so and I've been rolled (well over 300 BBs) enough for 5/10, but I gotten distracted with bonus whoring or live play enough that I've never moved up online, even though I regularly play 5/10 live. I've talked to bdk3clash about this and his plan was to drop back down to 1/2 6-max for SH practice and then play 5/10 SH since those games look unambigiously better. I like that plan so much I've adopted it myself. I've already been reading everything on the shorthanded forum for a couple of weeks. Other than that, I'll still be playing it up at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

sfer,

I am pretty much in the situation you describe. For a while I have had the 300BB for $5/10 byt felt like I needed a bigger psychological bankroll, something along the lines of 450-500 BB. Now I have that but am still playing $3/6. I keep saying I will take shots at $5/10 but have not done so, in part because of the dearth of full ring games at Party (although UB seems to have full $5/10 games that don't seem much tougher than the $3/6 games so I may give those a whirl this weekend). I am thinking about the SH games but I have not played SH poker since for two years and that was at play money tables. I am thinking about spending one-half to one hour per day playing SH at the microlmits to try and figure out how those play and then working my way up. I will report my progress and hopefully you will do the same.

Good luck,

Colgin

[MoreWineII]

"For a while I have had the 300BB for $5/10 byt felt like I needed a bigger psychological bankroll, something along the lines of 450-500 BB."

Amen.

[MarkD]

Why not just grab $500 and see how you do? If you lose it stick with your game plan, but if not then away you go. If you move up and start losing there is nothing that says you have to stay there. There are plenty of 5/10 full games that are beatable.

[MAxx]

While bonus whoring at pokerstars (play some tourneys there). But to get the bonus points, I have been doing some shorthanded 1/2 limit. That is FUN. I have probably had only 2.5 hours at this over 4 short sessions. It is so fun to be LAGZILLA and stomp the crap out of the tight asses at pokerstars. Now I am sure that 5/10 competition would be much more difficult, and I would have to get a lot more s/h experience before i would be at the 5/10 level. I would also assume that 5/10 short would be even more variance to your bankroll than 5/10 full (which already seems swingy enough). That is probably going to prevent me from giving it a serious whirl.

[sfer]

For me, a big part is learning and feeling comfortable shorthanded. I've played live when tables go short and I've loved it.

Also, I think generally there's an excessive race to move up stakes here and on the Micro forums. I'm happy to stick to a level until I feel comfortable.

[MAxx]

that's what I have done when My bankroll has gotten above 300bbs. takeing a shot with $300 to $500. i have tried 4 times. Obviously I am 0 for 4. My b-roll is close again, and again i will take another shot... I dont care how many times it takes, I am going to beat that game.

[bdk3clash]

I'm at 2/4 bankroll-wise right now, although I have plenty for the 3/6. My overall plan is to move up to 3/6 at 500 BBs, and 5/10 at 500 BBs for that.

Once I get to 5-10, ideally I'll be playing a mix of full and shorthanded. The average pot sizes in the shorthanded 5-10 games seem to generally be bigger, and I want to learn shorthanded play, so I'll probably be playing a liberal amount of shorthanded 1/2 and lurking in the HUSH forum to get my bearings.

SFer and turnipmonster have both pointed out to me that the HUSH forum here is one of the best in terms of strategy discussion. (I would argue that SS is up there as well.) I think that part of being a well-rounded poker player is knowing how to play in different types of games, so learning the 6-max games is a good step.

Also, 6-max tables tend to get about 90-100 hands per hour--about 50% more than the full tables. So even if they're the same EV per 100 hands, they're 50% more profitable on an hourly basis. And from what I've read here, I suspect that the 6-max games are probably more profitable per 100 hands than the full games.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think generally there's an excessive race to move up stakes here and on the Micro forums. I'm happy to stick to a level until I feel comfortable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hear what you are saying, and I don't see anything wrong with it.

I have the I wanna move up ASAP attitude (but within bankroll). I get a sense of accomplishment when I move up, and I ultimately want to play for big money. The sooner I am ready, the better.

[MAxx]

I like your plan too. I think I am going to take a mixed approach like you all talking about. I think I will spend some time at 1/2 short and gradually move up in the short department on the side. My main focus is still to beat that 5/10 full at party, but I like the short action as well and see the benefits of developing those skills. I have looked at Short forum some, but I already spend so much time in here.

[BottlesOf]

This may have been said already, but there are plenty of good 5/10 full tables at night. Not as much during the day, but it isn't a "lost level." I play 5/10 full almost exclusively online, and I think it's making me better, and earning me money.

[daveymck]

It may be that with being in the UK I am missing the best times to play, I tend to play from 6pm-11pm Uk time which is getting to early evening for you guys.

[joker122]

I had the identical dillema only 2 weeks ago. If you are beating 3/6 and are confident in your abilities I think you should give 5/10 SH a shot. The play there is atrocious. It's like being at a .5/1 table but with the 10x the aggression. Thus, there is some great money to be made but the swings are insane. I was +260 BB after my first 5,500 hands but in the last 2,000 hands I've given 110 BB back.

edit - also, start living in the SH forum. the advice and posters there are excellent.

[daveymck]

Finally gave 5/10 a shot tonight withnit being a holiday in the US was probably more like normal evenings, also there seem to be a few more full handed tables on the bad beat jackpot tables so more of a selection.

With the MTT win I had last week I am well over 500bb's bankroll so a bad hit taking a shot here wont be too bad.

So 150 hands in up 28.24 bb's per 100 hands I sense some pain ahead, but a good confident start and good thing was still looked at things in BB's rahter than cash, whether that will change when the downswing comes that will be the test.

PLan to play my usual 3/6 in early evening UK and switch up as it gets later in the afternoon US time see how it goes.