Why Was I A D*ck?

[RPatterson]

For those that didn't read the original post we get to the top 3 and the guy in 3rd has been sitting out for awhile and it doesn't look like he's coming back. He has a few hundred less chips than 2nd place guy who I have covered by 3x.

I raise every hand all-in and when he tells me to chill and wait for the other guy to bust I tell him that I don't have to wait but he does.

Apparently I am a dick for using positive EV plays? I should just collude and split the blinds even though I can take them all down if I want?

What did I do that was unethical? He was the one wanting to collude and I was the one doing whatever I could to maximize my tournament EV. Explanation please.

[PrayingMantis]

I think one thread about this very important matter was more than enough. You can and should do whatever is +$EV for you, no matter what others think, as long as you don't cheat or collude. That's about it. I don't undersatnd why you are so interested in what some on-line player types in the chat box during the game or when it's over. I really don't get it. Play your best poker, that's all.

And BTW, raising all-in constantly with every hand, is probably not the best way to go. You are begging for a call, and it will come at some point. Most chances you won't be ahead. And a 3:1 chip lead SH, in NL, is not huge.

[JayCo]

Maybe it was just a misunderstanding and everyone thought you were asking if you were a Duck.

I'm guessing that "yes" responses may have been more about the tone of your chat and description of the situation than your actual play/all-in raising in the SNG to maximize EV.

Maybe we should start a 3rd thread with a poll to see if people were thinking of you as deck, dick, dock or duck?

J

[Cleveland Guy]

FWIW - your play was not the dick part.

If you want to raise, raise, raise, your chips, your choice.

But why get involved in a verbal war with this guy? That's where I think you were a dick.

Saying "I don't have to wait, but you do" - that doesn't sound conceited?

Don't get me wrong - he was a dick too.

But as we all know 2 dicks don't make a ?

[RPatterson]

But I was right. I didn't have to wait, and he did.

[Cleveland Guy]

Yes you were right.

But you don't have to be a smart ass and rub it to this guy who is behind.

If you can't see why that's a d-ck move, then I can't help you.

[RPatterson]

I did it because I wanted to help him understand that he shouldn't call with K8 in the future. To maximize my EV.

[whiskeytown]

it's highly possible your being a d*ck to him made him play tougher vs. you, reducing your EV...

in fact, he beat you, didn't he...which part was about maximinzing your EV again?

RB

[poboy]

First of all not only are you a dick, but your a dumb dick. It's no surprise that this guy went on to win the game. Only a dick would go all-in on every hand, eventually he's going to get some decent cards and bust you, which sounds like is exactly what happened. Were you afraid to play him after the flop? Only a dick would start not one but two threads, letting us all know what a dick he is. Moving all in wasn't the dick part of it, talking about it was.

[JrJordan]

...so is mentioning the word dick more times than you have posts on this board in a single sentence.

[Marcotte]

Anyone else get the feeling we're listening to some guys named after colors discuss Madonna?

[durron597]

So say you have 4650 chips, he has 1650 chips, and the shortstack has 1400 chips. These numbers are approximately what you said, so I hope they will suffice for our discussion. If he waits for the other guy to blind out, assume that he will never recover and will always get second place money. EV = ~$30. (the tilde is for the miracle case where he recovers).

Now assume he calls you with his 1650 chips and K8. You have any two cards, since you are raising allin every hand. He's a 60% favorite to win, and, assuming it's the shortstack's button, he will end the hand with 3300 chips, shortstack will have 1400 chips, and you will have about 3300. Now assume that because you are evenly stacked, and neither of you can abusively bully the other, I will also assume equal HU skill and give you guys an equal shot at winning the HU match and that the sitting out shortstack will still always get third (assuming he won that first K8 allin). Then his EV is 50*.3 + 30*.3 + 20*.4 = 15 + 9 + 8 = ~$32. The tilde is there because the probability on K8 winning vs. a random hand is not exactly 60, but close enough.

Anyway, by calling with K8 his EV went up by $2, so he made a good call - which you called terrible. That's all I was trying to say in my earlier post in the other thread; that you encreased his EV (and decreased yours) by giving him a good shot to double up by raising every hand with any two cards.

[poboy]

What does the number of posts someone has have to do with anything? We all have to start somewhere right? Had I been posting on here for over a year would that make my comments any more right or wrong? Just trying to convey what a "tool"(that seems to be the word of choice around here) I think he is.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else get the feeling we're listening to some guys named after colors discuss Madonna?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many dicks is that?

[Chuckles1248]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else get the feeling we're listening to some guys named after colors discuss Madonna?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many dicks is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot.

[RPatterson]

Poboy if you held reading comprehension skills you'd know he couldn't bust me because I had more chips. And that once the player sitting out was eliminated I went back to playing normally.

Was I afraid of playing on the flop? Yes, that is why I did it. As pointed out it had nothing to do with chip sizes, blinds, or money intervals.

[RPatterson]

Generally the more posts you have, the more removed from reality and the real world you are.

[RPatterson]

Did you factor in him finishing 3rd 40% of the time? Or just how that effects his EV if he always wins.

[joker1976]

I agree with Durron. You didn't get the point. His call with K8 is a good call if you are raising every hand, blind is big and you only have 3x his stack. If you have 5100, he has 1700, sit out has 1200 and sit out is on BB for 400 blind. One win will give him chip lead of T3800 and cripple you to 3400. Now he can put the pressure on you and steal your chips by making the same play. His call greatly increase his chance of winning the game, which is highly +ev compared to the loss by busting 3rd. Even when ev is exactly zero, I will make the same call.

[joker1976]

there's no guarantee that he can finish 2nd if he waits out. Sit out may win the final allin and force him to blind out. It happens all the time.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Poboy if you held reading comprehension skills you'd know he couldn't bust me because I had more chips.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you had any comprehension skills at all you'd understand that being busted can mean more than one thing. In this instance I was using it to mean he could double through you a couple times and win. Which is apparently exactly what happened. Quit whining about a superior player beating you ,it just reinforces you looking like a tool.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you factor in him finishing 3rd 40% of the time? Or just how that effects his EV if he always wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. See the quoted:

[ QUOTE ]
Then his EV is 50*.3 + 30*.3 + 20*.4 = 15 + 9 + 8 = ~$32

[/ QUOTE ]

The bolded part is the part of the EV calculation from him busting in 3rd 40% of the time.

[Graham]

I'd say you shouldn't be raising all-in every hand - or he'll snap you off at some point - just raise many hands. Enough to grab way more than your fair share of blinds.

It's odd, but many players have differing ideas about what to do in bubble/money/stack situations. They only see what they want to be done, not what the other guy might consider optimal for him.

I had a disagreement with one of the better players in the stars sng's about a bubble situation. 5-handed; 3 decent stacks but I'm 2nd smallest, so still sweating with not much. All-in tiny stack, me and this player to the flop. I flop a small pair (5's I think) and bet the guy out of the pot after he checks - cos I need chips too, of course. The all-in then spikes a J or whatever, to survive, and the 3rd guy goes nuts about me betting him out. He couldn't take it in that I had my own EV requirements in that spot, namely maximising my chances of getting more chips. For me, screw his agenda of keeping everyone in to knock out the tiny stack; that would just then leave me in trouble. But he didn't want to hear it.

You got a sort of similar thing here, with different ideal courses of action. His ideal scenario would be to bust the sitting out guy before playing against each other HU. Yours is to bag some more of his chips cos he's gotta worry about outlasting the sit-out.

Ya shoulda just typed in "deal with it!" and raised his blind again.

[ilya]

I just thought the comments you quoted that you made in the chat box were rude.

[RPatterson]

He doubled up on me once durring that period then went back into shell mode while I took all the chips back. So no, doesn't look like that's what happened.

And no that isn't what being busted is either.

Poboy you are a pretty sad guy. Quit whining about a superior player beating me? Does arguing with other people online give meaning to your life?

[Cleveland Guy]

you posted a question to get an answer. If you didn't like the answers you were going to get then why did you pose this question?

I think you need to go join desdia, or whatever his name is

[mackthefork]

You have put up two threads recently

1) Was I A D*ck?
2) Why Was I A D*ck?

[ QUOTE ]
Poboy you are a pretty sad guy. Quit whining about a superior player beating me? Does arguing with other people online give meaning to your life?

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote sums up the answers to both questions, especially ironic point, you say

[ QUOTE ]
Does arguing with other people online give meaning to your life?

[/ QUOTE ]

In the middle of an agrument with a person online (well does it do it for you?).

Point is do it but don't talk about it, and courtesy costs nothing so give plenty.

Regards Mack

[RPatterson]

What do I get in return for being courteous?

[hyde]

upon your death bed you will attain total enlightenment.
so you've got that going for you....

[RPatterson]

I already have total enlightenment.

[Dominic]

if that were true, you'd already know if you were being a dick and wouldn't have posted this thread.