Three questionable hands

[MRBAA]

Live 4-8 with a very weak, loose fairly passive table. On my immediate right is the one other solid player -- poker author and noted sage Randy Burgess, who had the temerity to question my tactics in three hands. I thought I'd seek advice from the group as a learning tool (at least for one of us).

Hand 1:
One very weak limper utg, one fold, I raise with A9s, I'm reraised by a very loose tricky player, limper calls two cold, I cap. Flop comes A-7-5 with one of my suit. Limper checks, I bet, loose/tricky raises, limper calls two, I call. Turn is a deuce, no flush limper checks, I check, loose tricky bets, we both call.

River is a 4, limper bets out(!) I insta-fold, loose tricky asks the limper if he has a three, limper shows him 3-5s for free and loose tricky folds 77 for the flopped set.

Randy felt a call preflop would be superior given how many players were still to act and that my cap was a waste. I felt raising had significant value because it could narrow the field to potentially isolate the weak limper and I didn't mind being called either with a nut flush draw.

My cap was very player specific. I knew loose tricky was likely to three bet to "see" if I had AK or AQ. He sees me as tight and predictable, so my cap "told" him I had a big pair and I think might have allowed me to push him off his sevens had he not flopped a set. The flop bet and call of the raise seem routine.

On the turn, I'm getting 11-1 but perhaps should have folded anyway, if I definitely put my opponent on a set or a big ace. Trouble is, he's also capable of playing KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 this way. Or even a flaky hand like A8s. On the river, I had an easy, easy fold when the limper bet into us both.


Hand 2:
88 in middle position, different weak limper in, I raise, blinds call, limper calls.

Randy questioned this open raise -- the rest of my play of the hand was not in doubt, as I flopped a set.

Hand 3:
AKo in MP. Loose but passive player open raises in EP, reasonable but quirky player cold calls, loose passive player losing big and in "whipped dawg" mode three bets. I fold.

Neither of us was sure about this play. My thinking was my cards might be in other hands, a cap was likely, I'd have almost no chance to win if I missed and even if I hit I could be splitting or dominated.

All thoughts appreciated.

[MRBAA]

Not comments, criticisms or kudos?

[BassMan712]

Hand 1:
Why raise with A9s with more players toa act. You run the risk of being 3-bet (happenend), and this is the type of hand you want lots of callers for. Capping can't be right either after being 3-bet by who you say is a tricky player who is probably not easy to play against. Even if you hit your A, I don't think you can bet it comfortably. That said, maybe I shouldn't criticize as you say you capped because of the players you were against. You obviousy has the right read on the weak UTG for playing 3-5.

Hand 2:
I like the raise. If your read on the limper is weak, then you want this heads up, a raise is the best way to accomplish that.

Hand 3:
50/50 here. I hate coldcalling with AK, and I hate playing it when betting is capped PF. Folding would be my choice as well.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 4-8 with a very weak, loose fairly passive table. On my immediate right is the one other solid player -- poker author and noted sage Randy Burgess, who had the temerity to question my tactics in three hands. I thought I'd seek advice from the group as a learning tool (at least for one of us).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds vaguely familiar. Also, I consider myself a learning tool. OK, a tool who is learning.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:
One very weak limper utg, one fold, I raise with A9s, I'm reraised by a very loose tricky player, limper calls two cold, I cap.

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I like the initial raise but am torn on the cap. I totally understand why you did it, but whenever I do stuff like this I end up feeling like I'm becoming one of them. I think that a lot of the loose-tricky players think that you're capable of capping with a hand you wouldn't normally cap with to push them off a small pair, which kind of negates the point of capping with a hand you wouldn't normally cap with. Even if you've never done it before. This could totally be the time you do it. And when they actually have a small pocket pair, no less. The temerity!

However, for one extra SB, you do stand a good chance of increasing whatever meager folding equity you can squeeze out of the loose tricky LP player and the weak limper. I've found that the loose-tricky types also make the occassional "smart" (most of the time meaning "not smart") laydown when they "know" they're beat, even in big-ish pots.

From a meta-game/table-image standpoint, him knowing that your caps really don't just mean AA-KK-and-sometimes-QQ is probably a good thing, too, since you'll be playing with him a bunch (and hopefully capping preflop against him a bunch.) I would go out of my way to somehow show this hand to my opponents, which would have been admittedly tricky given the actual river action. "Accidental" face-up muck, anyone?

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes A-7-5 with one of my suit. Limper checks, I bet, loose/tricky raises, limper calls two, I call.

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I like the flop action. You're pretty ahead or pretty behind to loose/tricky here. I'm so tempted to 3-bet to charge bad limper again, but even then he'll be getting like over 10:1 to call another 2 cold. I think calling down lets loose/tricky continue to bet his second best hand (if he has worse than you) and costs you the minimum when he's ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a deuce, no flush limper checks, I check, loose tricky bets, we both call.

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OK.

SSH pot protection inspired question: should we be betting the turn and hoping loose-tricky raises to try to make it -EV for the EP player to call?

[ QUOTE ]
River is a 4, limper bets out(!) I insta-fold, loose tricky asks the limper if he has a three, limper shows him 3-5s for free and loose tricky folds 77 for the flopped set.

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Given your read, this is a good fold, even though you're getting pretty good odds to just call down. It's close, though. I probably would have called, but I tend not to have as strong reads as you do.

Side note: was loose-tricky the guy who calls himself "Big Fish"? Aside from being a bad player, he shoots a lot of angles, and one of them is inducing EP players to show their hands before they (EP players) bet. He'll say "check behind" and table his hand, and I've seen EP players just get confused and table theirs too before betting, even with the nuts on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Randy felt a call preflop would be superior given how many players were still to act and that my cap was a waste. I felt raising had significant value because it could narrow the field to potentially isolate the weak limper and I didn't mind being called either with a nut flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair, you don't have the nut flush draw...yet...

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My cap was very player specific. I knew loose tricky was likely to three bet to "see" if I had AK or AQ. He sees me as tight and predictable, so my cap "told" him I had a big pair and I think might have allowed me to push him off his sevens had he not flopped a set. The flop bet and call of the raise seem routine.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above. I agree with your reasoning.

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, I'm getting 11-1 but perhaps should have folded anyway, if I definitely put my opponent on a set or a big ace. Trouble is, he's also capable of playing KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 this way. Or even a flaky hand like A8s. On the river, I had an easy, easy fold when the limper bet into us both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah--you're stuck calling down and feeling like a jerk when you do, but the pot's too big and there's too good a chance you're ahead or drawing well enough to fold. FWIW, the recently aired WSOP limit HE event featured a player (Powers) similiar to many loose-tricky low limit HE types. Did you happen to see it? Great stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2:
88 in middle position, different weak limper in, I raise, blinds call, limper calls.

Randy questioned this open raise -- the rest of my play of the hand was not in doubt, as I flopped a set.

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You can raise here for immediate profit. I think that you're good enough postflop to be pushing your small edges preflop, and I'm not convinced that 88 vs. a weak limper who could be dominated and blinds who are all-too-eager to defend is a "small edge."

Again, it helps to have a strong ego, because you're going to feel silly if/when you table your 8s and lose, which will happen, like, a lot.

Also, given that you planned on flopping a set, you should clearly raise/reraise/cap preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3:
AKo in MP. Loose but passive player open raises in EP, reasonable but quirky player cold calls, loose passive player losing big and in "whipped dawg" mode three bets. I fold.

Neither of us was sure about this play. My thinking was my cards might be in other hands, a cap was likely, I'd have almost no chance to win if I missed and even if I hit I could be splitting or dominated.

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I think I'd take AKo capped 4 ways against the lineup you described. Let's gamble!

Having said that, anyone coldcall 3 here instead of capping themselves? Why?

[ QUOTE ]
All thoughts appreciated.

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Ditto. Posts like this get lost in the mix of online hands but are an interesting change of pace because optimal play is so related to player reads, which MRBAA is particularly good at.

[JoeU]

Hi MRBAA

Good to meet you the other night at FW!

Hand 1: I'm 50/50 on the raise. I'd usually call here hoping to flop a big hand or a big draw. If you flop your flush or flush draw, I think you make more money off the weak limpers who come in behind you for 1 bet, rather than forcing them out with 2 bets. River fold is fine, of course. The turn is much closer, but I don't think calling is that bad in this spot. The pot IS fairly big here.

Hand 2: This is almost an auto-raise for me, especially against weak players.

Hand 3: I'm not good enough to fold AK preflop here. But, reading your description, the fold looks fine to me.

Joe

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: I'm not good enough to fold AK preflop here. But, reading your description, the fold looks fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's the thing. MRBAA is really, really good at these kinds of reads. He's right a lot more than he's wrong. I'm not, and consequently just can't make this AKo laydown. Given the information at my disposal, it probably wouldn't be right to fold, and given the information at MRBAA's disposal, it probably wouldn't be right to call or cap. Weird.

Also, lest anyone confuse MRBAA's hand-reading skill for excuses for weak-tightness, he uses them all the time to squeeze out extra badass value bets all the time. I think he posted a hand here where he 3-bet the river with the second nut /images/graemlins/club.gif flush on a 4-/images/graemlins/club.gif board because of a strong read, and he was right.

[sfer]

I like the preflop cap in hand 1. It gives you control, and it helps to have a wildish image at that game where you play regulars over and over again.

Also, I should point out that those isolation raises are really raises for value. Everyone there overdefends their blinds so you can pretty much count on getting called by 2 random hands in each instance.

I can't fold hand 3. I call and see what the openraiser's response is.

[MRBAA]

Geez...I guess only Joe Tall knows how bad I suck at he. But I'm learning. Reads are really important live. And for what it's worth, I read the raise, the coldcall and reraise in the AK hand as "real" hands, which influenced my fold. There were some loose raisers in that game who I would have given less respect. In fact the open raiser had JJ, coldcaller had AK (not sure if suited) and three bettor had TT. They flopped set over set, the third player called it all with gutshot and overcards, turn paired the board for full over full, river a queen to give the AK a straight. There was much action.

The terrible player in the A9 hand wouldn't fold for any number of bets in a big pot -- he was there to gamble. The loose tricky guy I know really, really well, hence the read. When I capped and bet the flop and he then raised, I was pretty sure he had either a set or a strong ace. I don't think I gave up much by raising it, but calling might have been better. Given the three-bettor, I still like my cap.

I thought the 88 was a pretty easy raise in this spot, too. Glad to see everyone agrees.

[MRBAA]

Suberb point about the blinds. I was just saying to RAndy last night how much people overdefend their blinds.

[Randy Burgess]

Hand 1: I just don't think A9s is strong enough to raise early in a full ring game - as MRBAA is fond of saying, even a blind squirrel can find an acorn now and then, and by sheer distribution of hands the chances are reasonably good that someone downstream of you has a significantly better hand. And why not go for the volume pot? As for the reraise, in retrospect I think it's fine - MRBAA's read on this player was perfect.

Hand 2: There's nothing terrible about raising with 88 after the limper. I'd raise it if I thought I could get head-up or three-way in a very tight game, or if I thought the table would call in a very loose game. But in the texture at the time, I thought a limp was better - again, why not aim for the volume pot and a set? That's where you really make money with this hand. MRBAA has been blithely quoting Ed Miller's advice about risking less in small pots and more in big pots, but here he has gone ahead and created a small-pot situation for himself where he could have gone for a big-pot situation.

Hand 3: The only reason to fold here is if you think the passive EP player would only raise with AA or KK. Other than that, if I'm reading MRBAA's description accurately you'll likely have position (and could cap to enforce this), so why would you fold a premium hand?

[MRBAA]

On the A9s hand, I think my hand has a good chance to be best as a high card hand AND it's a starting hand that can flop a nut flush draw so I don't mind if other loose callers come in and make it a big pot. Put me in later positions with one weak limper and this raise is a no brainer, but even from this early, I think I have value against weak players who will do things like call with 35s. In the actual situation, I saw the flop capped with positive pot equity against 77 and 35s.

The AKo hand is an interesting one. The fold felt right, given that I read all three players for hands. The first guy was a legit raiser, the cold caller was probably the tightest player at the table after us and the three bettor was loose as a goose but definitely needed a hand to three bet. In fact, I probably had a play here knowing what they had. But one of them could just as easily have had KK or AA, in which case I would be a huge dog. It was a very unusual situation in that game, and I don't think I gave up much (if anything) by folding.

[Randy Burgess]

[ QUOTE ]
On the A9s hand, I think my hand has a good chance to be best as a high card hand

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I don't have time to do the math right now, but I will make a side bet with you (anything you like) that you're wrong about having a "good chance," however you define it. I'll do the math later on - so what are you willing to wager?

[ QUOTE ]
The AKo hand is an interesting one. The fold felt right

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One criticism I've always had of your play, as you know, is that you go too much by "feel." I'm a big believer in getting reads on other players, but I think you need to work on your math rather than trusting to "feel" for situations that can be analyzed. How about you do the math on this one? You'll need to work out some combinations and scenarios, but that's not too hard. It would at least give you legitimate grounds for argument.