stupid?

[gamblore99]

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (4 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

[stoxtrader]

stupid might be a bit strong, but what are you trying to accomplish? your A outs make a 4 card straight, and that is a board that is very easy to get a good piece of. you are jamming a 4 outer in my opinion and the pot is small to begin with.

[willie24]

in my opinion the bet on the flop was a losing play. the turn bet is borderline- it might be ok.

The thing is - if the caller has nothing but a king or 9, you probably couldve gotten by checking the turn and river.
If he has anything besides a straight draw- you are likely going to be called and beaten on the end.

is the bet you gain when the straight draw calls and misses enough to cover the bet(s) you lose when you are called by made hand?

i doubt it.

[Chuckles1248]

Why are you limping UTG+1 with Axs in a 10-Handed game?

[arkady]

because its party 2/4. Should he wait until it gets 15 handed?

[Chuckles1248]

I dunno....it just seems like that's too marginal a hand to be limping in UTG with, you're only real outs are a flush or two pair, as most likely someone will have a better Ace.

I'd fold preflop with that in EP, is that too tight?

[Louie Landale]

If you put a flog in hot water it will jump out. But if you put it in cold water and turn on the heat, it will stay and cook. It should jump out but it doesn't.

---------------------------------

This is a dangerous board. YOU may quickly lay down a stiff J or T because its dangerous, but typical low-limit folks are going to play their "big pairs"; they see no difference with J4 flop QJT than J82.

Buffing is when they probably don't have much, or don't like it when they do; not for when they probably have something and probably like it.

They shouldn't like it but they do. Accepting that is much better EV than rejecting it because you're right.

- Louie

[arkady]

Look, the most important thing you must consider before limping with Axs and small pocket pairs is the game texture.

I am going to keep it simple and say if you are playing 2/4 and even 3/6 on party ... and what the hell probably most party games, this is an OK limp. I have personally seen some 5/10 tables where limping with this would be a mistake, but generally you cannot go wrong doing this.

If you are folding this, it is too tight, yes.

Note: Do not OPEN limp in MP with this, because you want to at least have the possibility of people limping after you and creating a general limp fest. By open limping the number of people in the pot is already potentially reduced and then the limp is most likely an error.

Hope that clarifies it.

[Chuckles1248]

Okay, I see your reasoning there, given how loose-passive most party games are.

[busguy]

I'm with chuckles1248 on this one.

I fold this pre-flop in an EP or MP 95% of the time as I don't want to be paying two bets (extremely likely on Party 2/4) to see the flop. I'll play Axs in the last 2-3 spots (and the blinds obviously) if enough people are in.

I believe that Axs is a fairly big leak for a lot of players that could be breakeven or better players. I know it was for me until I stopped it.

my 2 cents

/images/graemlins/smile.gif busguy

[J.R.]

I believe that Axs is a fairly big leak for a lot of players that could be breakeven or better players. I know it was for me until I stopped it.

Poor postflop play is a fairly big leak for many players. Limping with Axs from EP is profitable in most party 2-4 games. If Axs is a fairly big leak for you Axs is not the reason for the leak. It may be right to play tight until you improve your postflop play, but don't blame the cards. Work on your postflop play, your win rate will thank you.

[arkady]

well you can agree all you want, but its not just right.

you are missing out on some equity and if you stopped playing Axs and stopped a leak, then it certainly is not from saving 1 SB pre flop everytime you get Axs in EP.

and what does it mean you fold it 95% of the time? what do you do the other 5% of the time? Does an angel come down and tell you to limp in?

EDIT: Just read JR's post, couldn't agree more and he always phrases it so much better /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[StellarWind]

Everyone assumes this is Party ... but you never said that.

The preflop discussion of Axs EP has been repeated many times. Either you do or you don't, but realize:

1. A six is not an 'x'. Spots do matter and you are well ahead of a two.

2. Having a limper in front of you is a huge comfort and makes it much safer to play. You have one more customer than otherwise for your draw and someone is much less likely to take a shot at isolating you by raising a hand like 88.

3. Unless the limper is a tight-passive player in which case this is a mandatory fold due to severe threat of domination by a better ace or a medium pair.

4. Axs are possibly the most volatile hands in hold'em. You have to expect huge swings in results. My simulations show it takes an enormous number of hands for the results to converge to a stable average, much larger than for any other hand that people normally play. Of course that's exactly what you would expect given its propensity for big flush pots, expensive busted draws, and disastrous second-best TPNK hands. The question of Axs EP cannot easily be settled by recourse to statistics. Even without the variation in game conditions no one has remotely adequate statistics to prove anything.

5. However, if you have bankroll or psychological reasons for avoiding variance, run away. The risk is huge and the +EV is small unless your opponents are complete loose-passive fish (i.e. much worse than normal Party 2/4).

6. This cannot be a big leak. The EV of playing Axs EP is near zero. You cannot be losing much.

That ran longer than I expected ... back to the hand.

I check the flop. Even if the semibluff is slightly +EV, which I seriously doubt given the small pot, bad board, and three low-level opponents, you cannot afford to call a checkraise with a gutshot and very questionable overcard. You make more money by taking a free card and trying to make your straight.

I'm not sure about the turn, but I doubt betting is correct against an unknown opponent. Once again a checkraise would be a disaster because of your strong outs. The drawing nature of the board means everyone can find a reason to call. Either they are drawing or they suspect you are. Some of the hands you win by bluffing will win or tie anyway when you take a free card and then get a free showdown.

[gamblore99]

I bet and he folded