Playing the shortstack when the blinds are getting high.

[SixgunSam]

This is a newbie question:

I was playing in a SnG yesterday and I had really dead cards. I managed to hang around until four players were left. I kept myself alive by stealing the blinds evey orbit or so by pushing when I saw an opportunity. I made enough to get by, but I wasn't really progressing. I kept my stack between t1500-t1900 while the blinds climbed as high as 200/100, then I started to get some good cards. I get AA UTG, I thought about it and played it exactly as I had the other hands -- push. No callers, I get the blinds. A few hands later, KK, same result. I didn't want to suddenlly call, because I think that would give out information that I'm going to push with my crappy hands and flat call or make a standard raise with my big hands. My logic was that sooner or later someone might get sick of me stealing and call when I had something really big. Eventually, I did get someone with A9 to call when I happened to have AQ and I did double-up, but I was wondering if I missed extra money by pushing and driving players out with my giant hands like KK and AA shortstacked as I was or would I be giving away too much information and hurting my future chances at stealing. I would really apperciate the insight.

[Zaebos]

Whats the buyin?

[SixgunSam]

I play $20 or $10 at Stars. I believe this one was a $10, but I'm not positive.

[papawawa]

yeah definetly. When in this situation, you want to raise just enought to get one or two callers (preferably one). And then, depending on the board, milk them as much as possible.

[SixgunSam]

Okay, but my question is, with less than 10BB, if I raise I am pot committed. I've been pushing my stack in fairly often to stay alive. Now the one time I get something big and want action, I bring it in for t600 ( leaving me t900 ) won't this give information about not only this hand, but also the hands where I don't want callers? To me, that would seem to be a tell that people could pick up on and then the next time I have to steal they won't be as afraid to call me. Is my line of thinking wrong?

[Desdia72]

strategy. in a two table SNG the other day, i was the shortstack with 5 players left (5th place is a bubble finish). the blinds were like 100/200 with 25 ante and i have around 1K in chips. i went all-in around 4 times, not only picking up the blinds, but also the limp-ins by the bigger stacks. part of my all-in success was due to observation of the table. if you notice players are willing to limp with anything to see a flop, well i'm gonna go over the top all-in as the shortstack with damn near any Ace and K 10+ suited hand. the biggest stack at the table got pissed off with my all-ins. he raised 450 preflop on one orbit and when i folded, he said, "why did'nt you go all-in this time? i replied, "because i'm good". this pissed him off even further to where he commented that he could'nt wait to get a hand to call my next all-in with". about two hands later, i'm all-in again with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and he folds. he ended up getting busted out in 4th when we made the money. i went out in 3rd all-in with like 10 10 to yet another familiar river card (guy had overcards).

[patrick dicaprio]

at $10 you dont need to worry about whether your opponents will get a line on you. so just make a smaller raise and dont worry about it.

Pat

[durron597]

This is why you shouldn't push every single hand you want to push short handed. If someone miniraises, call the miniraise. Thus you're allining sometimes, and calling sometimes, etc. So say you just call with like 98s from the SB, and then somehow show it down. Then next time if you just call from UTG with your AA, they'll think "oh he probably has a suited connector" etc.

Shorthanded play is a lot more about outplaying your opponents than it is about the cards. Mix up your play, and you'll get rewarded.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why you shouldn't push every single hand you want to push short handed. If someone miniraises, call the miniraise. Thus you're allining sometimes, and calling sometimes, etc. So say you just call with like 98s from the SB, and then somehow show it down. Then next time if you just call from UTG with your AA, they'll think "oh he probably has a suited connector" etc.

Shorthanded play is a lot more about outplaying your opponents than it is about the cards. Mix up your play, and you'll get rewarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're the shortstack and the blinds are high, there's no time to being trying to mix up your play and outplay your opponent. i went out 6th as the shortstack in a two table SNG i played last night with two pair on the flop (9s and 10s) to a guy who called with J 8o. the guy caught a 7 on the river for a str8. did i have time to mix up my play or outplay the bigger stacks who could afford 800 and 1200 raises with the blinds at 200/400? no. in that spot, pushing is the only play i see. mixing up your play is good when you have to chips to mix it up with.

[Bluff Daddy]

at the $10 level people will prob not try to put you on hands anyways and will just be playing their cards. I think you had too many chips to be pushing all in w/ aa kk. If you had 1500-1900 that is a lot of chips for some else to risk w/ a marginal hand. But since you had been pushing in a lot before it makes since as usually people get fed up and will call with any pockets 2 face cards etc. I would prob play it like you did w/ kings if I had already pushed a lot recently and get a little more tricky w/ the aces.

[tallstack]

IMO, if there are four players left, you are going to have to play AA and KK however you think you can get the most chips out of your opponents. I wouldn't worry about how that would change your future image. How often do you get a hand that is a huge favorite near the end of the tournament. I would play it however it was most likely to get action. If I had been stealing fairly often then I would likely push and hope for a bigger stack to make a stand against the small stack bully. If I thought that a large raise would scare everyone away, then I would limp or min raise depending on position. If you win a large pot with your monster then people will be more afraid to call your next big bet due to your larger stack size anyways.

Dave S

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
at the $10 level people will prob not try to put you on hands anyways and will just be playing their cards. I think you had too many chips to be pushing all in w/ aa kk. If you had 1500-1900 that is a lot of chips for some else to risk w/ a marginal hand. But since you had been pushing in a lot before it makes since as usually people get fed up and will call with any pockets 2 face cards etc. I would prob play it like you did w/ kings if I had already pushed a lot recently and get a little more tricky w/ the aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

a few days ago. i was the shortstack going all-in, forcing the bigger stacks to call if they had a hand and this one guy got real pissed. he ended up being ousted from the SNG before i did.

[durron597]

Any raise MUST be a push. But against the right kinds of opponents, it can be correct to just call a UTG raise from the BB and then push on any flop (stop-and-go), or against opponents who will fold to miniraises on flops they miss, you can win a lot more pots with nothing if you just call the blind and bet any flop. It always amazes me when I play against these players, but often very weak-tight players will catch cards when someone else doesn't and end up with a lot of chips three handed, which their weak-tight play will make them happy to give to you.

Most of the advice on this forum is structured around the most common situations against competant opponents. But shorthanded is where the rules go out the window and the "optimal" play is not always the best one, because you know your opponent will do something stupid to make your unusual play work out.

The original poster made it sound to me like his opponents were just the sort of people who would lay down to a tiny bet on a flop they missed, which is why I suggested mixing up his play might be the best course of action. Remember, just because you have only 9xBB it doesn't mean you are necessarily desperate - the stacks might be 9xBB, 14xBB and 18xBB; thus even the shortest stack might not be someone a tight player will tangle with even when it is correct to do so.

[SixgunSam]

[ QUOTE ]

The original poster made it sound to me like his opponents were just the sort of people who would lay down to a tiny bet on a flop they missed, which is why I suggested mixing up his play might be the best course of action. Remember, just because you have only 9xBB it doesn't mean you are necessarily desperate - the stacks might be 9xBB, 14xBB and 18xBB; thus even the shortest stack might not be someone a tight player will tangle with even when it is correct to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in this case it was the opposite. The reason I opted for the sledgehammer approach was because up until the bubble, two of the three other players left I would classify as loose/passive (and several other loose/passive types busted out along the way), the third guy was a good player. Like I said in the orignal post, I had really bad cards for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I'm pretty good about manufacturing chips in these situations by stabbing at pots, but this approach was backfiring because of the loose/passive players who were more than willing to fish and it rarely ever got in a heads-up situation. In these situations, I am typically looking to make something and value bet, but I seemed to miss completely flop after flop. The only thing that secured me a pot was by shoving it all-in the middle from time to time when no one was aggressively betting. I was hesitant to change-up what was working because two of these players were so bad that I thought the best thing I could do against them was to play straight ahead and not try to make a fancy play. When my stack got to the push or fold level in relation to the blinds, my game got even more straight ahead.

I suppose you are right that I could have played the aces to induce action and not given away too much information against typical $10 SnG players, but say I was up against higher caliber players, would that still have been the right play?