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View Full Version : What does it take to be a world champion?


jdoe
08-12-2004, 12:31 AM
Now this is a question that has bugged me for a while. I would like to get as much honest input on this question as possible.

Now when I say "World Champion" I am not asking what it takes to win the WSOP main event one time. My question is how can someone like Dan Harrington make the final table back to back. How can someone cash in 7 WSOP events in one year. How can Phil Ivey win the American Poker Championship when he was behind as bad as he was. How is it possible for someone to play that well? What do they got that I ain't got?

I do know the answer is skill, but what skills am I missing?

I do know that I play pretty well. I have read about every book. I dominate my home game. I am the best at almost every 4-8 (or lower) I ever play. Im an above average 10-20 player. But, I still feel like I am missing something. I can lay down KK with an ace on the board. I have a good grasp of pot/implied odds. I can read cards better than most players I play. I found out that after 6 hours of play I am about 60% so I have limited my sessions accordingly. My results are ok as I am up about a dime this year in all my action, but I just know I am not as good as I can be.

I'm missing something but i don't know what it is.

Help,
Jdoe

dogmeat
08-12-2004, 12:39 AM
I don't know. Humility, maybe?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Bubbagump
08-12-2004, 10:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know. Humility, maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

This, and experience. One thing that all the players in Jdoe's post have in common is they all 'got mileage. And I'm not talking about numbers of hands played here. Dan Harrinton and the rest of those guys have been on the cicuit for a long time. Most of the players we would consider WCP's play against each other on a daily basis and are intimately familiar with one another's game. They know when they can make a move against each other. They also (most of them) know how to stay out of trouble when playing against the many unknowns that are currently on the circuit.

There is just no substitute for experience. And you won't get the kind of experience I'm talking about playing 2-4 HE online no matter how many hands you log.

Bubbagump

Atropos
08-12-2004, 03:35 PM
Everything that makes a good poker player + LUCK. IMHO you need to get some skill to get into situations were getting lucky would be very much +ev.

BreakEvenPlayer
08-12-2004, 03:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I can lay down KK with an ace on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you can lay down AA on an A 3 5 board then you can get back to us.

trillig
08-12-2004, 03:58 PM
PATIENCE?

If you don't have it, you can't get far enough in tournaments often enough....

You have to survive long enough where a couple hands going your way, WILL seat you at the final table.

I was 11th at the NLHE Barge 2004 main event, and have won 10 tournaments online...

and I am not claiming to be a WCP at this time.... it's a long bumpy road...

-Bri

Sponger15SB
08-12-2004, 04:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can lay down KK with an ace on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you can lay down AA on an A 3 5 board then you can get back to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone can do that, all i need is 3 of the same suit.

BreakEvenPlayer
08-12-2004, 05:19 PM
It was an unfunny joke Spongebob.

nothumb
08-13-2004, 12:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My results are ok as I am up about a dime this year in all my action, but I just know I am not as good as I can be.


[/ QUOTE ]

As in, $1,000? Sorry, I'm not cool when it comes to monetary slang. I'm guessing this based on sthief's recent post where he was stuck a dime.

It's August, dude. That's like, 130 bucks a month. Prison inmates are doing better.

NT

Nottom
08-13-2004, 12:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Once you can lay down AA on an A 3 5 board then you can get back to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laying down AA on that board would be a crime.

The better example with KK is knowing when you can raise in spite of that A on the board.

Justin A
08-13-2004, 12:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I found out that after 6 hours of play I am about 60% so I have limited my sessions accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

WCP's play at or near their best all the time. These guys can play marathon sessions when the game is good and still kick ass. Mental discipline.

Justin A

Rushmore
08-13-2004, 02:03 AM
Stop grinding. Take a shot at making a parlay at a higher limit after you make a score sometime and a game looks good.

Unless you just wanna grind, in which case you might end up the year $1700 ahead.

You cannot sit in 4/8 games and wonder what skills you need to be a WCP.

You gotta get to 6/12, at least.

But seriously, I have learned more playing in games I should not have been sitting at than in every dusty old copy of Card Player I've got sitting in my bathroom.

There are moves and plays just waiting four limits up that you wouldn't think existed.

You just gotta be willing to step up when you probably shouldn't.

Omelette=a few broken eggs.

nothumb
08-13-2004, 02:21 AM
Rushmore -

Couldn't agree more. I've learned a lot by playing way over my head, and won money in the process. I tried to build my roll slowly, with discipline, and just stopped enjoying the game. Playing at higher stakes made it interesting and gave me focus again. You can get reamed out in some circles around here for that but I for one advocate 'taking shots' with money you can afford to burn.

Anyway, I still can't believe this guy is talking about being a championship level player when he has made as much in a year as a lot of very average posters here make in a matter of weeks. Clarky's made that much in the time this thread has been running.

jdoe: Quit thinking about being on TV and start thinking about scoring a nice $300 win at the casino. How can you say you are a decent 10/20 player when you are ahead 50BB after 8 months and you've presumably won some of that money at lower levels?

Just feeling like you are the best player at a 2-4 table is not enough. You need to feel that you have a handle on every move your opponents make, and know which edges to push and which ones to wait on, etc etc. You need to own those tables, not beat them.

But that's really beside the point. I try to avoid hitting a rut at any time. I try to shake things up, so I'm always focused, learning, challenging myself at the tables. I sit down at every session hoping to crush the game, and my secondary objective is to feel lively and involved as much as possible. I'm not one of those "it's one long session" guys. That feels like work - and for some people, it is, but for me it's more than that. You don't just want to be playing poker to extract money; you want to be enjoying your time. At least, I do, and when I don't, I stop getting better.

NT

BreakEvenPlayer
08-13-2004, 02:26 AM
Once again, it was an unfunny joke.

Bubbagump
08-13-2004, 09:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As in, $1,000? Sorry, I'm not cool when it comes to monetary slang. I'm guessing this based on sthief's recent post where he was stuck a dime.

It's August, dude. That's like, 130 bucks a month. Prison inmates are doing better.


[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point here? Being from Mass myself, I can understand your jadedness when it comes to money due to the disgusting cost of living here, but to some people a grand is still a lot of money, including me.

Bubbagump

Nottom
08-13-2004, 11:38 AM
I'm from bumfuck and even I know that winning a grand playing poker over 7 months isn't enough to make me consider going pro (unless you are Dynasty). Of course maybe he meant 10K.

nothumb
08-13-2004, 01:28 PM
I'm not jaded about money. I'm just saying that many online players clear a grand a week. I wouldn't shake a stick at it if somebody tossed me $1000. It's just not enough money to even think of yourself as a successful online player, much less a potential pro.

NT

Blarg
08-14-2004, 10:11 PM
I don't see him saying he considered himself a potential pro so much as simply and directly asking what it would take so for someone to do so. He's wondering what the differences are between where he is at and where he should be if he were someone with real potential.

No fair jumping on someone just for asking a question.

Ian J
08-15-2004, 01:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm from bumfuck and even I know that winning a grand playing poker over 7 months isn't enough to make me consider going pro (unless you are Dynasty). Of course maybe he meant 10K.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought he meant 10k when I first read the post. Not that I'd be thinking of going pro after making a mere 10k in 7 months, but it's better than 1k.

Martin Aigner
08-15-2004, 05:25 PM
Why would someone want to make a unfunny joke?

Martin Aigner

GOODBEATGUY2001
08-15-2004, 09:18 PM
A combination of good luck and the ability to correctly read your opponents.

bernie
08-16-2004, 10:17 AM
_

FeliciaLee
08-16-2004, 01:50 PM
Reading the beginning of your post made me think that your interest lies in tournaments. Then I read the last of it, and suddenly it seems that you are mainly playing cash games. So I wondered...what kind of champion do you want to become? A cash game champion or a tourney champ? Or both?

Each of these forms of poker takes a different talent. It is not easy to become the best player at both. There are only a handful of top players who can be called world champions in both tournaments and cash games. Players tend to pick one or the other, for the most part.

In my last (and only extensive) conversation with Andy Glazer, we talked about this quite a bit. He was interviewing me for an article in Cardplayer, and asked me when I moved from the low buy-in tourneys to the bigger circuit. I told him that story, then he asked how I had fared thus far in the $500+ buy-in category. Naturally I told him that I felt like an underdog, dead money, and that my only saving grace was that I'd freerolled those tourneys thus far. He started giving me advice about hanging with the tougher crowd. That advice consisted mainly of one thing: experience.

I can do very well in small buy-in tourneys, but I don't yet have the experience to win the bigger tourneys. If you watch the best players, one thing you will notice is their unwavering willingness to "die" in order to win. They know that they sometimes need to go in with the worst of it. In order to give themselves the best shot at winning, they will sacrifice the tournament. They cannot play so tightly that they are only going in with the best of it. They take those chances. It is hard to do, consistently, and at the right time. That is one of my biggest downfalls at this moment, and something that has held me back in hundreds of tourneys.

People like "Action Dan" cultivated an ultra tight image over many years. He uses that persona to his advantage, making very loose plays, knowing that others see him as tight. He has worked that image into many final tables.

Ivey puts himself in a position to be eliminated quite a bit. He is willing to die, in order to win. He does it again and again, putting others, who don't want to be eliminated, to the test, for all of their chips. He got that lucky break, with the worst of it, towards the end of the HU match at Turning Stone. That is all it took, one break, and then he was able to eat up his less experienced competitor. He uses that fear of elimination to his advantage, because he is not fearful himself.

These things take years, and a ton of experience, to cultivate. I look upon my tournaments at the series this year, and the California State as "free lessons." You can do this, too, by winning satellites and getting your chance to play with the world champions. It takes a lot of time and patience to get to their level. All I have is time, give yourself the same opportunity.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif
www.felicialee.net (http://www.felicialee.net)

playerfl
08-16-2004, 02:28 PM
even if he meant $10k ( which I think he did ) its about $8.75/hr, and that is on a good run. He would make more money in a year working an $8.75/hr job.

playerfl
08-16-2004, 03:59 PM
there is tremendous luck in tourny's, I don't care what anybody says.

If you were the luckiest man on earth, you could win a tourny by simply knowing the rules of the game with no experience.

Skill/Experience improve your chances of cashing and winning but you can't take the luck out of it without making it a different game.

morello
08-16-2004, 04:31 PM
"I have a straight"

If he can be a world champion, so can you. Just misread the board, your hole cards, go all-in with the worst hand, etc. It's bound to work out.

Or you could lose $1500 in pennies, one penny at a time..

bdk3clash
08-16-2004, 04:58 PM
I can lay down KK with an ace on the board.

Sucker! I was bluffing.

jdoe
08-17-2004, 09:04 PM
I really don't plan on going pro on my $1000 YTD win. I don't know what made people think that is what I wanted to do. Even if I was good enough I'm not sure I would want to. I read my post over again and few people really answered my question. A lot of you wanted to tell me how bad my results are. Fact of the matter is I *KNOW* that my results are in the top half of all poker players in the world. I AM UP.

Thanks to all that *read* & answered my question.

Jdoe

Bubbagump
08-18-2004, 09:29 AM
If you give people an opening someone is going to use it. These online forums are basically a microcosm of every poker room in the world. And just like in the poker room, there are those here that just love to knock people down to make themselves feel better. And the anonymity of an online forum makes it all the more tempting for these people to do so.

But there are also many good people here who will attempt to honestly answer any questions like these, without the sarcasm and other BS that is prevalent in many posts.

Bubbagump