J9s 100-200 hand sickening? (w/ bonus hand)

[mike l.]

late night 6 handed commerce 100-200, what a great game. 1 or 2 decent players but everyone is too loose and too aggressive, wait check that, WAY too loose and WAY too aggressive. this includes some really freaky looking postflop plays. got that? nevertheless this hand troubled me.

i have J9s on the button and im small blind on the button because someone busted out in their blind. so there are two small blinds (me being one of them) and one big blind. utg who is a recent wsop TV star from what i understand raises, next two guys who are fishy weird call two cold, i call, sb calls, bb calls. 6 of us.

the flop is J63 rainbow. sb bets, he is one of the more reasonable players but super aggro as well. bb calls, utg raises, one guy folds, a fish calls two cold, i call two cold, sb calls, bb calls. 5 of us to the turn.

the turn is 8 it's a rainbow board. checked to utg who bets, next guy calls, i call, sb calls, bb calls. only 5 of us now.

the river is 2. sb checks, and now bb fires out. utg agonizes and folds, next guy folds, i call, and sb overcalls. as sb calls i feel really sick to my stomach.

did i swallow my vomit or just let it spew all over the commerce floor?

(this was a must move game into a similarly juicy main game. the main game featured the good lord of limit hold em, lenny martin, no floaters, a really fishy overweight russian woman who's been playing like 120 hours a week in the game, a really fishy weak player who's lounge lizzrd deluxe who ive commented on before, some random loose aggressive asian men and women who keep forgetting we're not playing pai gow and who jump up all the time to ask friends at the stud table about exchange rates on some korean money orders they happen to have on them and need to cash, you know just your typical really tough really tight high limit hold game lmao. i didnt pay much attention to lenny martin's play but i did notice he seemed to be playing an awful lot more hands then i wouldve expected and at one point he was nearly down to the felt, only to be up about $10k about an hour later. interesting.

let's see what else. oh, i got there at around 11pm and as soon as i sat down i had AKo and reraised and was jammed out on the turn and lost a lot on that hand, on the next hand i had KQs and flopped a flush draw and lost a couple more stacks on that when i missed, then i had 99 and raised, 5 people saw the flop of Js6d4d. i bet and was called in two places by 55 on the button and, get this, Tc9c in the sb. play GOOOOOT! of course the running straight came and my river value bet was met w/ a raise and a reraise. Tc9c. yeah so in short everyone avoid the commerce 1-2 cause it's fiercely tough.)

[sam h]

Will SB fold a better jack if you raise the turn in that first hand? That's a pretty good spot to be representing a set. And there's a pretty good chance it will be checked to you on the river and then you can decide to value bet or not. I like that line much better than calling both streets.

If BB will make weird moves, then raising the river should also be considered if you play it as you did.

[mike l.]

"Will SB fold a better jack if you raise the turn in that first hand? That's a pretty good spot to be representing a set. And there's a pretty good chance it will be checked to you on the river and then you can decide to value bet or not. I like that line much better than calling both streets."

in a normal game some sort of raise or reraise by me at some point would enable me to take control of the hand. however in this game the players are so fearless and so wily that i was scared to ever really take a stand without something very strong (and in turn they never gave me any respect anyways or else my plan would be transparent and exploitable). i felt like my hands were bound on this hand and all i could do was call call call w/ my top pair, although this was not necessarily a bad thing by any means. as to whether sb would fold a better hand if i raised the turn, the answer is no way in hell but he might reraise to test out utg and he may do that with hands i beat as well as one that had me sucking wind. it crossed my mind to raise the turn or reraise the flop but i was too petrified of the prospect of being forced to call a capped street with my hand and i had seen that happen repeatedly at this table.

"If BB will make weird moves, then raising the river should also be considered if you play it as you did."

this crossed my mind as well but the amount of river raises at this table was also quite high so i felt it wouldnt shut sb out if he had me beat, plus i would be forced to call a reraise by either player as bizarre as that must sound.

[Clarkmeister]

I'd just raise the turn and what happens happens.

[andyfox]

"(this was a must move game into a similarly juicy main game. the main game featured the good lord of limit hold em, lenny martin, no floaters, a really fishy overweight russian woman who's been playing like 120 hours a week in the game, a really fishy weak player who's lounge lizzrd deluxe who ive commented on before, some random loose aggressive asian men and women who keep forgetting we're not playing pai gow and who jump up all the time to ask friends at the stud table about exchange rates on some korean money orders they happen to have on them and need to cash, you know just your typical really tough really tight high limit hold game lmao. i didnt pay much attention to lenny martin's play but i did notice he seemed to be playing an awful lot more hands then i wouldve expected and at one point he was nearly down to the felt, only to be up about $10k about an hour later. interesting.

let's see what else. oh, i got there at around 11pm and as soon as i sat down i had AKo and reraised and was jammed out on the turn and lost a lot on that hand, on the next hand i had KQs and flopped a flush draw and lost a couple more stacks on that when i missed, then i had 99 and raised, 5 people saw the flop of Js6d4d. i bet and was called in two places by 55 on the button and, get this, Tc9c in the sb. play GOOOOOT! of course the running straight came and my river value bet was met w/ a raise and a reraise. Tc9c. yeah so in short everyone avoid the commerce 1-2 cause it's fiercely tough.)"

-You've been reading too much Elysium.

Call, call, call, call. With top (vulnerable) pair, I'd probably raise somewhere, probably the turn. I suppose this is what happens with J-9.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
i felt like my hands were bound on this hand and all i could do was call call call w/ my top pair, although this was not necessarily a bad thing by any means.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess there's your answer. I don't play that high, but it sounds like the 1-2 at Commerce can get very context specific. Only question is whether you can find a fold somewhere, and it sounds like the answer is a pretty excruciating no.

But hands like this do make me wonder about what starting hand selection in this game should look like. If you didn't have the weird button/small blind thing going, do you think this is a preflop call in either spot (button or SB) in this game? On the one hand, your opponents seem to overplay their hands so much that you want to take shots with this kind of hand. But when that pretty draw hand turns into jacks crap kicker, then you're in trouble. Maybe that's just the cost of doing business, but its a pretty steep one.

[Rick Nebiolo]

good post although i'm not sure the first hand was fun for you.

with that hand and aggressive fishy lineup a half bet discount with position isn't enough to see the flop with a hand this weak in high card strength. this will be a game where pairs and high cards rule, not hands that usually need to take down small pots with a bet or make some sort of draw. i'd consider a fold preflop but it may be close.

the rest of the hand has you playing their game.

hope you won anyway.

~ rick

[lefty rosen]

I suspect the convience stores sell gum for 5 bucks a pack? This game seems insane? Is this typical and how long can bad players last at this limit before they tap?

[mike l.]

"i'd consider a fold preflop but it may be close.'

i think it's closer than you think. implied odds in a game like this are huge. true it will cost me a lot to draw and put me in some tough situations should i flop top pair or any pair for that matter, but that can be said of virtually anything less than flopping the nuts in a game like this.

anyway bb turned over Q3o for a pair of 3s. i turned over my J9 for top pair 9 kicker and started pointing it towards the muck. the whole table gave me a shocked look and the sb tapped the table and mucked. mhig. sb said he had pocket 9s and he asked utg if he could beat the pair of 3s and utg said no.

[mike l.]

"Is this typical and how long can bad players last at this limit before they tap?"

many of them appear to have endless amounts of money. ill keep you all posted on my adventures up there. next week.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
...started pointing it towards the muck. the whole table gave me a shocked look ...

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFLMAO /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ike]

how much is a flight from ny to la?

[El Dukie]

[ QUOTE ]
how much is a flight from ny to la?

[/ QUOTE ]

About 2BB. The same it would have cost Mike to raise on the turn. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ike]

I'd definetly pay 2BB to sit in a game this good. See y'all in a week or so. /images/graemlins/wink.gif