Seeing every flop

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Not sure if this has been discussed before (probably has) and not sure whether or notto post this in the theory section or this general question, but here it goes.

A couple nights ago I was at Bay101 with a couple of 2+2'ers and decided to see every sigle flop for about 2 hours no matter what, didn't matter if it was limped, raised, 3-bet or even capped. Obviously this is a terrible strategy, but it got me thinking a little bit about a couple of questions.

Just how costly is this strategy in terms of my win-rate in typical loose small stakes games?

Now suppose I am a loose caller, but a tight raiser and my opponents didn't realize otherwise.

Also suppose that I play perfectly post-flop and that I have incredible hand reading abilities which allows me to save a couple of big bets here and there that other good players typically don't.

Basically, how much can your post-flop skills make up for the edge you're giving up pre-flop?

Also, on this same note, how much of your win-rate is derived from pre-flop decisions and how much from post-flop decisions?

[dogmeat]

Why, exactly did you do this to your bankroll? How long were you at the bar before trying this new strategy, and how much influence did the 2+2'er have? Have your 1500 posts and time on the forum taught you nothing?

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Nightwish]

Perhaps he was playing something like 2/4 where the money won/lost simply doesn't matter.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Heh, for your information I only lost $100 on this 3/6 table.

But anyhoo, this is a legitimate question, I really want to know the answer!

[pokerclacker]

[ QUOTE ]
Just how costly is this strategy in terms of my win-rate in typical loose small stakes games?


[/ QUOTE ]
the looser the game the better the pot odds you're getting on your typical crap hands, however you're also cutting back on your chances to win. It becomes a bit more of a crap shoot (when a lot of players limp with you), where your post flop play isn't going to be of quite as much importance. unless of course you play tight postflop, but then you're still (in a weak game) throwing away about 1.5 extra bets per hand preflop of which you'll lose most of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Now suppose I am a loose caller, but a tight raiser and my opponents didn't realize otherwise.


[/ QUOTE ]
this is only advantagouse in a loose game. In a tight game you would want your opponents to think the opposite.

HEMPFAP has a whole section on preflop play and outlines the importance of hand selection. I think a review of that material could answer a lot of your questions.


although seeing the flop on every hand isn't a good idea, It's still more profitable than going like Broomcorn's uncle*.

I think your post was interesting, I've often questioned my own game and how loose or tight I play given different circumstances.

*I lent a friend my Super System, Is that the right name for the guy who 'anted himself to death'?

[shawn_p]

Daniel Negreanu calls this "Nutbar", check out the artical.
web page (http://cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=12235)

[Greg J]

Thanks for the link shawn. Good read! I think the .25/.5 tables at PS would be a great place for some people here to try this out while not damaging bankrolls too much. (I play there currently and there are some fairly decent players there -- comparable to a 3/6 live table).

[MaxPower]

I can't give you an exact answer but let's see:

Let's assume your normal hourly rate is 2BB per hour and you get dealt about 30 hands an hour at this game. You normally see the flop about 8 times per hour.

That means you are seeing the flop 22 more times per hour and some of the time you will be calling raises. So let's assume you put in a extra 13BB per hour before the flop (compared to your tight strategy)

How much does this cost you if you play perfectly post-flop? I don't know but I think it is nowhere close to 13BB. I'm guessing 3-5 BB per hour based on intuition.

I'm just pulling these numbers out of nowhere, my assumptions could be off.

You might find this thread (http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/nov97_msg.html#1050) interesting