Do i put my chip leader stack at risk?

[bsiu5]

ok, first thing is first this is not a bad beat story so if your gonna make a comment like that then don't comment. my ?, has nothing to do with the way i played cause i would have not done the same if it was a SnG game but this is a tournament.

button with Q10o. EP(weak tight-shortstacked, like to raise and see the flop), raises 3xBB. right now i'm the chip leader, 2nd chip leader is to the left of me on the small blind (diff. in chips is about 1000, BBs are at 500 right now). i decide to min. raise hoping the blinds will fold and i can go heads up. usually i wouldn't raise but i was mixing it up this hand to add deception. to my surprise SB, 2nd chip leader, calls as does EP.

Flop is AKJ all clubs. great got the straight on the flop, all checked to me. i bet 25% of my stack which would have put EP all-in, as soon as i put my chips in the SB 2nd c. leader goes all-in. EP folds back to me. This is what i'm thinking since i've played with him for a very long time. i know he didn't have the flush because he would have slowplayed no matter what 2 clubs he had so i put him on a set or 2 pair.

here's my ? i know i'm winning right now but he may be on a flush draw with one of his cards being a club or he could hit his outs and make a boat. in an SnG game i'd instantly call but in a tournament you can't rebuy. Right now, 25% of my stack is an all-in for the rest of the 8 players on the table except the 2nd chip leader. if i lose this hand i'm basically all-in the next hand. if i win, i pretty much win the tournament. I tell him, "i got the straight but i'm not sure if i want to let you double up and outdraw me. i flip over my cards and told him, i'm laying this down cause your goonna outdraw me. everybody on the table was pissed and told me i was an idiot for folding. I told him i'll beat you when i know luck ain't gonna save you. sure enought he had AJ for 2 pair. everybody on the table, wanted to rabbit hunt and sure enough a Jack came on the river and would have made his boat.

i ended up winninig the tournament when he had a boat to my 4 of a kind.

But i really want to know cause i think at one point in a tournament i'm put to a decision and know that i have the best hand but i dont' want to get taken out by a lucky turn or river and have to watch from the sidelines, was that the right play in folding this hand? Granted i made the right decision at the time, but is it better to call his all-in when i know that one hand could decide my fate in the tournament?

please, i would like to here your opinions.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

If you know he doesn't have the flush, I don't see how you can fold here. I also don't understand why it matters whether it is a SnG or a tournament. You want to get all your money in with odds like these. The pot is already huge, and in my opinion, you have to call. So you rabbit hunted and he hit his 4 outer. Your fold was still the wrong move.

[NUReedy]

You fold preflop is what you do.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

Yea I forgot to mention that reraising with Q10o preflop is not the greatest idea. I fold this every time. Having a big stack doesn't mean you can play hands like these for a reraise. Once you get to the flop, I still do what I said before.

Edit: This isn't a situation where you fold to wait for a better opportunity to take his chips later. This is your better opportunity.

[adanthar]

So, you basically reraised a hand that was either a 3:2 dog or a 3:1 dog depending on what the EP raiser had, hit a straight, bet 1/4 of your stack and then folded?

Why don't you just give each player remaining an equal percentage of your chips and go home?

[stinkypete]

first of all, your post would have been a lot easier to follow if you'd stated stack sizes in the beginning.

if you actually knew for a fact he didn't have the flush, you made the wrong play.

if he had trips, he had at most 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river (probably less since the other all-in player must have had a piece of the board).

with a flush draw, he had 9 outs to win and likely 3 to tie with the straight (and maybe a backdoor draw at a boat).

with 2 pair, he had 4 outs.

in the worst case, you're still a >60% favourite.

i'd only fold if the flush was a strong possibility.

[bsiu5]

the only reason why i raised was because i built up an image at the table for raising only premium hand. i was willing to lose a small piece of my stack if the flop wasn't to my liking, so they can't get a read on me. i had the flexibility because i had such an advantage with my chip stack. i figured by doing so the blinds would have folded and it would have been to the EP, which in turn if i caught anything i would have put him all in. my chip stack compared to EP was (EP 2500) me(30000). when i do get a good hand say AA i want people in the hand hoping to catch something. People, didn't want to play with me because my stack was so big. my goal at that point in the tournament wasn't necessarily to take more chips but to add deception for future hands in the tournament, and to take players out of the tournament.

[tallstack]

bsui5 is Phil Hellmuth? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Edit: Ok I shouldn't be joking around when I just recently started posting, but your logic here seems pretty strange.

You said that you minraised (to 6BB or t3000) and got 2 callers. So t9000 should be in there now. You then bet 25% of your stack (about 7500) and were raised to within about t1000 of being all-in. So you can call another about t20000 to win about t60000 and you are sure that you have a hand that is a 2:1 favorite. I don't understand how you make the laydown without thinking he may have the flush.

What I really can't understand is why you would tell anyone you made this kind of laydown. You have just reduced your stack size and gave everyone incentive to be more aggressive against you. I don't see how that can make things easier.

Dave S

[bsiu5]

Here's my ?, yes i had great odds to call. everybody is saying it's an easy call. ok, mabye in an SnG game where you can just rebuy. you guys calling me hellmuth. ok, i may fold a better hand, but i don't bitch about losing. I want to know is it worth jeopardizing my chance of winning the tournament, where there's a chance for a miracle club or catch his out for a boat. if i called his all-in and lost the hand would i would have had to go all-in the next hand, when 2 seconds ago i was the chip leader. My thought was if i fold, i'll put my chips in another situation i'm more comfortable in. i knew i could outplay him.

another example in a tournament i layed this down. i had AKs battling against the 2nd chip leader. he went all-in, i didn't put him on a premium pocket JJ, QQ, KK, or AA. maybe overcards or small pockets. even though my hand is a premium hand, i didn't want my chip stack to be played on chance where i have no control. so i lay it down and wait for a better opportunity.

These plays are only when i have a big stack not when i'm short-stacked.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

It doesn't matter how many chips you have. When you know you have odds like these you have to take them. You HAVE to take some chances in this game to win. Your reasoning is illogical. If you have AA and someone goes all-in in front of you, will you fold? No? Well you are getting worse odds to win there then with your straight against his two pair and there isn't even any money in the pot in the AA hand! I do not see at all why it matters if this is a SNG or not. You can not rebuy in a SNG. Sure you can start another game, but that is not rebuying. Regardless, your strategy should not change much just because this is not a SNG.

Regarding the AK hand. How can he have overcards if you have AK? If what you are saying is there is a good chance he could have something like AQ or KQ, then you should have called here as well. From the looks of it, you are playing a very weak game, and once your opponents know this, they are going to run you over.

[Dominic]

okay, you're getting slammed here by everyone so I'll be different:

I think you made a great play and I'll tell you why. You were confident enough to know even though you were likely throwing away the best hand - at the moment - you were comfortable enough in your skill to outplay the other guy down the road. Which you did.

Guys - yes, he had the right odds to call, but his whole point is this: he's trying to win the tournament. He correctly surmised what the other guy had and deemed it wasn't worth the risk of going bust. He can't go click on another SNG if he loses here, right? He's the chip leader, he picked his spots - this wasn't one of them. An odd move? Yes. One I would make? I'm not sure I'm good enough to have been able to dismiss the idea he had the flush already, so who knows?

Any decent poker player knows that you'll only be a winner if you're sometimes able to lay down the best hand.

This guy played the longview - the tournament - and not the shortview - this hand. In my mind, he gets a high five.

[Dominic]

I do agree he shouldn't have shown his hand. But it sure didn't hurt him that night, did it?

[AtlBrvs4Life]

[ QUOTE ]
okay, you're getting slammed here by everyone so I'll be different:

I think you made a great play and I'll tell you why. You were confident enough to know even though you were likely throwing away the best hand - at the moment - you were comfortable enough in your skill to outplay the other guy down the road. Which you did.

Guys - yes, he had the right odds to call, but his whole point is this: he's trying to win the tournament. He correctly surmised what the other guy had and deemed it wasn't worth the risk of going bust. He can't go click on another SNG if he loses here, right? He's the chip leader, he picked his spots - this wasn't one of them. An odd move? Yes. One I would make? I'm not sure I'm good enough to have been able to dismiss the idea he had the flush already, so who knows?

Any decent poker player knows that you'll only be a winner if you're sometimes able to lay down the best hand.

This guy played the longview - the tournament - and not the shortview - this hand. In my mind, he gets a high five.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't understanding that this isn't a hand you fold to wait for a better chance at a later time. The pot is already HUGE and according to him, he knows that he is at worst a 2:1 favorite. I could never bring myself to lay this hand down in this situation.

[durron597]

Here's my two cents. If you were going to fold a flopped straight, then DON'T EVEN PLAY THE HAND PREFLOP. Seriously. I think this is a terrible fold, given your read that he DIDN'T have the flush, because you have so much money in the pot (25% of your stack?!?!?!). You should call even if you are even money to win (you are much better than even money). But I really think that the best play would have been to fold preflop if you were going to fold here.

[jaybee_70]

[ QUOTE ]
the only reason why i raised was because i built up an image at the table for raising only premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure about your image? You ended up getting 3 callers. It is possible that you are putting more stock in your image than they are. In fact villain called your preflop raise w/ AJ. Misreading your opponents may lead to faulty decision making. just my $0.02.

Joe

[tallstack]

I apologize for my joke at your expense, but it just reminded me of some pretty cocky grandstanding to show you have someone beat, let them take your chips, and then post in a forum how you came back to beat them. Since it looks now like you genuinely believe that was the best play, I apologize.

I can appreciate that you were not comfortable in that situation; no one would be too comfortable there. It's obvious that he had a hand that could draw out on you. But to give up 1/3 of your stack to the new chip leader and expect to get them back from him when it's 8 handed seems crazy to me. You have very little control over where those chips are going. It worked for you in both ways here (losing the hand and winning the tournament), but I think that is being results oriented.

I don't know if anyone wins more often than 2:1 heads up against an opponent who has twice your stack, and that’s the situation that you would have preferred. You are obviously confident of your HU play, and maybe rightly so. For me, HU with large blinds is not the place to be sure of making back a deficit. I just think that you are giving away much too much on this hand to be able to outplay everyone later.

Dave S

[gergery]

If you raised preflop with AA and he came over the top with 88, would you also fold that?

Your straight is an 80% favorite to win the hand in this position. Just as AA is an 80% favorite to win the hand preflop vs. 88. Same exact odds, so your decision should be exactly the same.

Just how exactly did you expect to get in a situation in the future where you were better than an 80% favorite, with any degree of certainty?

Either way, if you were willing to fold to his all-in because you wanted to be more certain, then the only way to be more certain is to be at the river. And to do that you need to get there cheaply – so limp on flops, don’t raise them. Your logic is not internally consistent with your objective (which, as has been pointed out, a terrible one)

--Greg

[AtlBrvs4Life]

[ QUOTE ]

If you raised preflop with AA and he came over the top with 88, would you also fold that?

Your straight is an 80% favorite to win the hand in this position. Just as AA is an 80% favorite to win the hand preflop vs. 88. Same exact odds, so your decision should be exactly the same.

Just how exactly did you expect to get in a situation in the future where you were better than an 80% favorite, with any degree of certainty?

Either way, if you were willing to fold to his all-in because you wanted to be more certain, then the only way to be more certain is to be at the river. And to do that you need to get there cheaply – so limp on flops, don’t raise them. Your logic is not internally consistent with your objective (which, as has been pointed out, a terrible one)

--Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was saying above. I'm glad someone realizes this. To make this call even easier, the pot is huge. With the AA hand you would almost surely call without the huge pot.