Strike three.... I'm out. Need check/raise advice

[SomethingClever]

I need some advice on check/raising, as I've whiffed the last three attempts.

The first two times, I was holding TT in very early position (UTG or +1), and I raised. Someone in MP 3-bet, and I just called. Many players (4 or 5) came along for the ride.

Flop is all rags. I check, hoping that the preflop 3-bettor will bet, and I can get two bets from everyone when I probably have the best hand.

Nope. Checked through both times.

The third time, I limped and then called a raise from a very aggressive player. I was holding 66, and I flopped a set. I check, waiting for the bet from aggro, and he checks it through.

What gives?

Now, on the last hand where I had a set, I realize that I probably should have just bet out. But it was a very loose and passive table except for this one maniac, and I thought I could get everyone to come along for two bets. Had I bet, of course, the maniac probably would have raised, and I could have 3-bet. D'oh.

Anyway, are the first two scenarios reasonable situations in which to check/raise, or should I just be betting out there as well? What are some other obvious situations for check/raising?

[lu_hawk]

If the flop is favorable for TT then a c/r from early position is a good play. You want to get overcards out. If you whiff then bet out on a favorable turn card, the bet is doubled so calling a turn bet is the same as calling 2 cold on the flop.

In the 3rd situation that is not the time to checkraise the flop, it would be very bad. You bet out, you want everybody calling.

[busguy]

In my opinion check/raising is WAY overrated as highlighted by your three examples. Check raising definately has it's place but I think people try to do it far too often when they should just be betting. When it misses or worse limits the field to hands that CAN beat you, you give up way to much.

Play tight. Play aggressive. Leave the "Fancy play sydrome" to the fish

my 2 cents

/images/graemlins/wink.gif busguy

[mrjim]

I agree that CR should be rarely used. However, situation three seems good to me where as 1 and 2 seem bad. Maybe I'm way off base, and please let me know.

I'm thinking in 1 and 2 you probably have the best hand, but are vulnerable to any overcards so you have to bet to try and drive them out or at least give them bad odds to call. Even if they call, it's better than giving them infite odds by giving a free card, which seems like a big mistake here.

In situation 3 you have a much better/less vulnerable hand so I think CR here is ok. Giving a free card isn't nearly as dangerous. Plus you limped PF so you appear weak to the aggressive player to your left.

Anyone else agree?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus you limped PF so you appear weak to the aggressive player to your left.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't limp in the first two scenarios. I raised and was 3-bet.

[mrjim]

I added that at the end and meant to add it to hand 3, but put it on the wrong paragraph. It's fixed now, sorry.

[Brain]

In hands 1 and 2, it looks like the pot is sufficiently big that overcards will have correct odds to call one bet if Hero bets out. It will decrease their odds (still may be correct though, if the pot is big enough) if they have to call 2 cold.

In hand 3, I would suggest betting out as well. Just because you bet doesn't mean you have to have anything.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
...so you have to bet to try and drive them out or at least give them bad odds to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is, I don't think a single bet will give them bad odds to call. The pot is too big.

A related question: When check/raising, is your objective usually to get more money in the pot, or to drive out hands that have decent draws against your hand?

Do you actually do both, sometimes?

For example, in the TT scenarios... I probably have the best hand, but it's vulnerable to overcards. Which of the following 4 lines is what I want?

1) Check/raise and drive out a few opponents
2) Check/raise and everyone calls
3) Bet and drive out a few opponents
4) Bet and everyone calls

One thing to keep in mind is that the pot is already large, since it was 3-bet preflop and there are at least 4 or 5 players in the hand. So I don't think #3 is an option. As for #4, it may be correct for a lot of draws to call, so you're not necessarily making your opponents make a mistake by betting out here.

I guess you can't be too unhappy with #2, because you're getting a lot of money in the pot with the best hand, even though it's vulnerable.

But I'm kind of thinking that #1 might be the best line. Go for the check/raise and hope that a few people fold. It gets some money into the pot, represents strength, and will either get a few players to fold, or make it incorrect for them to call.

Am I wrong?

[mrjim]

You are giving them worse odds than the have when you give them a free card (i.e. infinite odds). That's the point I was trying to make.

[Brain]

[ QUOTE ]

But I'm kind of thinking that #1 might be the best line. Go for the check/raise and hope that a few people fold. It gets some money into the pot, represents strength, and will either get a few players to fold, or make it incorrect for them to call.

Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner!

#1 looks good to me too because I want those overcards out pronto, especially if they're getting odds to call.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
You are giving them worse odds than the have when you give them a free card (i.e. infinite odds). That's the point I was trying to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true. Infinite odds suck. I could almost hear a "whoosh" as it got checked around on these hands.

Strangely, I ended up winning both TT hands against large fields unimproved.

[bakku]

It happens. Both attempts to c/r seem fine.

[Trix]

The first two really depends on the 3bettor, some people allways bets if they raised preflop. Clearly a check-raise is best in this case to try and eliminate some of the people between. However, if the guy checks overcards through multiway, then you gotta bet.

The last one is pretty unclear with the action. Was the hand HU ?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
The last one is pretty unclear with the action. Was the hand HU ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there were a bunch of players in the hand. The flop was uncoordinated and I had a set. I really regret not betting the flop on that one.

[Trix]

If he is on my left then I´ll mostly check-raise unless he is in LP. If he is on my right, then I bet, looking to 3bet.
Whatever traps most.

It´s imposible to tell whether check-raising or betting is best without having more info than you have given.

[cold_cash]

I think your objective should depend largely on the size of the pot. In one of your TT hands, it was 3-bet before the flop with 5 players, (if I'm reading the action right). In this spot, even though you probably have the best hand, I would just as soon bet or check-raise and have everyone fold.

If the pot was smaller and you check-raised and forced a few opponents to call 2 bets when you KNOW they're getting much the worst of it, having them call and chase isn't so bad.