T9s - Wondering about the turn

[Avatar]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (6 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.50 BB, won by MP3.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP3.</font>

Thoughts?

[Rico Suave]

Avatar:

This might be weak, but I would consider folding the flop.

--Rico

[Avatar]

You know what Rico - that actually never crossed my mind, and I believe it may actually have merit.

I'm drawing to a non-nut straight, spiking two pair is likely not clean, and hitting trips still may be no good as there may already be a straight out or at the least a few on straight draws.

At the time, I thought I had a decent holding in a big pot. The problem is, the big pot makes this holding a disadvantage because it is likely a raise to protect my hand (which may not even be good at the time), will not push out anyone else on legitimate draws.

[slogger]

Not very sure of myself here, but my initial reaction, due to the passive play of the hand up to the flop bet was that you should have raised the flop. This may be a bit reckless given the number of opponents and the flush draw, but a raise could protect your pair against gutshots and clean up some of your own T and J outs (though, admittedly, not many Party 2/4 players are folding a J or a T here).

Another possibility, and it looks like this may have been your thinking, is to just call, and wait for a safe turn card (assuming you don't hit the straight) before raising to protect your hand. Unfortunately, it looks as though you're up against JT or a set, but you cannot discount the possibility of a big diamond draw with straight possibilities.

It sucks, but without an airtight read on MP3, I think you need to call with your pair getting 11.5 to 1 on the river. It's positive EV if you're good just 1 in 12 times (8.3%).

[sublime]

I dont like the turn raise

If you are going to continue on the flop (very close IMO) then you have to raise!

[Trix]

I would probably fold this flop. If I choose to play, then I would rather raise then call as it might clean some of my outs, but I think it´s too small and too multiway to bother.

[sublime]

This might be weak, but I would consider folding the flop.

I doubt its weak. The key is will a J fold here? More often than not, no. This board is tough for hero and I cant see folding being a mistake.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Avatar,

You should raise preflop here. Buying the Button is key, and since you're already guaranteed a multiway pot, you'd rather it be a large multiway pot with your hand and position.

Since you didn't raise preflop, you should fold the flop. The pot isn't large, you have many players left to act behind you (i.e. there's a decent risk of a raise), and you're in crappy relative position to gain EV when you do hit your gutshot.

The only reason to raise the turn would be if there's a decent chance your hand is still best, MP will never stop 'n go, and you were planning on calling the river unimproved. You have no semi-bluff value, since better hands aren't going to fold here.

The biggest lesson to be learned from this hand, though, is to raise preflop. Not that it would've won you the pot or anything, but it is very important.

GoT

[Kaz The Original]

Why the turn? You want a free card for your draws, go on the flop where semi bluffs are half off. Did you think you could push him off his Queen? Remember, he was not the preflop raiser which means his raise is usually genuine.

In short, if you think he's bluffing, call down. It's cheaper than a raise when you're behind, and will often net you an extra bet when you're ahead (from his bluff on the river). And those 4 outs you picked up aint worth a value bet in a heads up pot.

[Trix]

Would you raise this on the button ?

KJ/KTo from CO?
QJo ? A9o ?