Chasing the C/R with KQo

[Jonny Melon]

Gila River Casino (AZ) 3/6 hand. Important player is SB, who is fairly new to the table and hasn't been involved in any hands yet. Has folded 6 straight -- too early to label him as tight?

Jonny Melon has K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif in MP. 2 limpers. I call. Button calls. SB completes. BB checks.

Flop:
K /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to me. I bet. Button calls. SB raises. All others fold. I 3-bet. Button Calls. SB caps. I call. Button calls.

When SB C/Rs, I initially think he has either T7, or K with a weaker kicker. It's an odd C/R. When he caps, I think 2 pair (KT, T7, or K7). Does anyone interpret this different?

Turn:
2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
SB bets. I call. Button calls.

River:
2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets. I call, praying he has T7 or he overplayed KJ. Button folds.

Comments on all streets welcome. Also: Who folds the river if the hand doesn't improve?

Jon

[zram21]

I would have raised this preflop. Outside of that I think you played the hand fine. I wouldn't have folded the river for one more bet here even if the board hadn't paired and possibly saved you.

[MoreWineII]

Too early to label SB as tight, imo. And minus a read, I call the river without hesitation.

[slogger]

Not sure if this is too LAG, but I raise this preflop. I don't want SBs seeing cheap flops with T7 and the like - I want to them to pay to do so.

Given your limp, I agree with your play on the flop and the call-down is a must. You may consider throwing in a raise on the river (the second 2 cannot have hurt you - you either remained behind or took the lead), but 77 and even TT are possible holdings for SB that would get you reraised, and you're still behind KT and K7.

All things considered, I think a call on the river is correct.

[StellarWind]

A preflop raise is possible but not required.

No doubt SB is tight preflop but that doesn't tell you how he plays postflop.

Is this a 1/3 SB or a 2/3 SB? It makes a big difference with a tight player.

With a flush draw and two OESDs available on this flop, there is every possibiliy that SB is pushing a draw. Even at the river he could be betting two little clubs in hopes that you both have higher draws that will fold.

Folding top pair good kicker on this board does not even merit consideration. It would be awful, deuces or no deuces.

[MarkL444]

Im with stellar. Folding the river would be a huge mistake. Any draw that SB could have capped with on the flop didnt come through. (A /images/graemlins/club.gifx /images/graemlins/club.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif or worse)

[Jonny Melon]

What I don't understand is why he would C/R in that situation with a strong draw (trying to clean up an A out on a flush draw, maybe?) . All that would do is knock out the limpers that are between me and the S/B. If I was UTG or BB, then I would understand the play. That's why I thought it was a strange C/R. Or am I giving my opponent too much credit for actually thinking that through?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't understand is why he would C/R in that situation with a strong draw (trying to clean up an A out on a flush draw, maybe?) . All that would do is knock out the limpers that are between me and the S/B. If I was UTG or BB, then I would understand the play. That's why I thought it was a strange C/R. Or am I giving my opponent too much credit for actually thinking that through?

[/ QUOTE ]
If all my opponents were that smart I would have to go back to bridge.

It just doesn't work that way.

[lil']

Raising this hand pre-flop if nobody else has raised is a good habit to get into.

Other than that, I don't want to fold top pair good kicker on this non-scary board. The 2nd two on the river makes the call that much easier as it is a total brick.

Even if you lost, it's not worth losing sleep over.

[Shawsy]

[ QUOTE ]
When SB C/Rs, I initially think he has either T7, or K with a weaker kicker. It's an odd C/R. When he caps, I think 2 pair (KT, T7, or K7). Does anyone interpret this different?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would add 77 (maybe TT) or a flush draw with A /images/graemlins/club.gifX /images/graemlins/club.gif or flush and str8 draw with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif to the range of hands.

The action preflop got to SB with four limpers and only the BB to act after him, so I could see him just completing and not raising with all of these hands. A raise from SB might/might not get rid of BB, and won't get rid of any of the limpers so SB will be out of position in a multiway pot for the rest of this hand.
As I type, some other hands that I would consider are AA or AK, but I think SB would have raised with these preflop even against four limpers, so I rule those out.

Raising from MP with KQo preflop is not a bad idea, but I don't hate limping along with two EP limpers either. KQo is very playable in a multiway pot, and I am not sure that raising would have limited the field much preflop anyway.

[me454555]

KQo isn't bad in a multiway pot but plays better against fewer opponents. KQo is most likely the best hand pf or 50/50 against some underpair. A raise is nice b/c it gets the dead money into the pot and can eliminate the small and bb. It also gives you a chance to buy the button. Raising also gives you much more options if the flop misses you. You have position in this hand, use it.

[Jonny Melon]

I absolutely agree that I should have raised PF. I usually raise KQo in this position. I think I allowed myself to get gun shy after a couple bad beats in a row. No excuse, though.

The SB showed K7o for 2 pair and MHING. Since the SB is only $1 at Gila, and SB turned out to be reasonably tight throughout the rest of the session, there is a good chance that a PF raise would have knocked him out. Lesson learned.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely agree that I should have raised PF. I usually raise KQo in this position. I think I allowed myself to get gun shy after a couple bad beats in a row. No excuse, though.

The SB showed K7o for 2 pair and MHING. Since the SB is only $1 at Gila, and SB turned out to be reasonably tight throughout the rest of the session, there is a good chance that a PF raise would have knocked him out. Lesson learned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say your assesment of him as a tight player is incorrect given he played K7o for 2/3 of a bet.

[Jonny Melon]

He tightened up significantly the rest of the night. I think he just made a loose call from the SB. I'm basing that assessment more on what he did after this hand.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say your assesment of him as a tight player is incorrect given he played K7o for 2/3 of a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very marginal piece of evidence for judging a player's overall preflop play. It may not be representative.

Tight players, as opposed to good players, learn their standards from tables in books. These books are not nearly as complete or accurate concerning small blind play as they are for other basic situations. They also generally do not address 1/3 blind play at all.

Some otherwise tight players (correctly) consider SB to be a place where they can indulge themselves at comparatively small cost. If you want to "buy" a few more hands as entertainment while still being generally tight, completing extra small blinds is a good approach.

This hand is relevant but I would not build my assessment of this player around it.