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burntazure
08-11-2004, 11:57 AM
Greetings All:

It seems that the United States Legislative body has been up to some work. Since the country has been so successful in so many other areas and that they have so much free time the Legislators have decided to focus their energy on Internet gambling! (Hopefully soldiers dying or 9/11 victims won't mind). Indeed I was watching on CSPAN last night when a congressman from Illinois was grilling Wolfie (Paul Wolfowitz) on why Afghanistan was still deriving 1/2 of its GDP from poppies; Wolfie shrugged it off and said any drug destruction or lab shutdowns would be incidentals (i.e. 'We came across them.') It is disheartening to say the least that Internet gambling is coming under fire and yet another example of the "freedom" that is so often spoken of in America is freedom of capital (for the capitalists) and not freedom of the individual. Of course, we must invoke a Chris Rock style definition to differentiate between being wealthy and being rich: the rich man is like Kobe Bryant, the wealthy man is the old relic that can afford to pay his salary as well as buy any other corporation or people that he pleases....

Okay, enough ranting. I do not wish to politicize this issue now. I simply want to start a discussion to see if other people have heard of this and what the possible impact of US poker players will be. Of course, each person should view the issue under a political lens and act accordingly.

The following are the specifics.

I first came across the idea that there is currently a bill scheduled for vote in the congress and senate when they next resume another voting session from this innocuous website found here (http://www.profreedom.com/).

Not being a simpleton, I decided to do a web search to corroborate this information. I was then led here (http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR00021:).

It seems that the proposed act is called the Unlawful Internet Gambling Funding Prohibition Act. Here are some specifics:



[ QUOTE ]
Unlawful Internet Gambling Funding Prohibition Act - (Sec. 3) - Prohibits any person engaged in a business of betting or wagering from knowingly accepting in connection with the participation of another person in Internet gambling: (1) credit; (2) electronic fund transfers or funds transmitted by or through a money transmitting business; (3) any instrument drawn by or on behalf of another and payable through any financial institution; or (4) the proceeds of any other form of financial transaction involving a financial institution as payer or financial intermediary for another.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Includes in the definition of bets or wagers: (1) the purchase of a chance or opportunity, predominantly subject to chance, to win a lottery or other prize; (2) sports betting; and (3) any instructions or information pertaining to the establishment or movement of funds in an account by the bettor or customer with the business of betting or wagering.

Excludes from the definition of bets or wagers: (1) any activity governed by the securities laws for the purchase or sale of securities; (2) any transaction subject to the Commodity Exchange Act; (3) over-the-counter derivative instruments; (4) any other transaction exempt from regulation under the Commodity Exchange Act or from State gaming or bucket shop laws; (5) any contract of indemnity or guarantee, or for insurance; (6) deposits or transactions with a depository institution; (7) any participation in a simulation sports game or an educational game or contest that meets certain requirements; and (8) any lawful transaction with a business licensed or authorized by a State.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Directs that relief granted under this Act against an interactive computer service: (1) be limited to the removal of, or disabling of access to, an on-line site violating this Act, or a hypertext link to such site, that resides on a computer server that the service controls or operates, with an exception; (2) be available only after notice to the service and an opportunity to appear are provided; (3) not impose any obligation on a service to monitor its service or to affirmatively seek facts indicating activity violating this Act; (4) specify the service to which it applies; and (5) specifically identify the location of the on-line site or hypertext link to be removed or access to which is to be disabled.

Requires the court, in considering granting relief against any payment system, or any participant in a payment system that is a creditor, credit card issuer, financial institution, operator of a terminal at which an electronic fund transfer may be initiated, money transmitting business, or international, national, regional, or local network utilized to effect a credit transaction, electronic fund transfer, or money transmitting service, or a participant in such network, to consider the following factors: (1) the extent to which the person is extending credit or transmitting funds knowing the transaction is in connection with unlawful Internet gambling; (2) the history of that person in extending credit or transmitting funds with such knowledge; (3) the extent to which that person has established and is maintaining policies and procedures in compliance with regulations prescribed under this Act; (4) the feasibility that any specific remedy prescribed in the order issued under this Act can be implemented without substantial deviation from normal business practice; and (5) the costs and burdens the specific remedy will have on that person.

Directs the Attorney General or a State attorney general to: (1) notify that person and the appropriate regulatory agency of the violation or potential violation and the remedy sought; and (2) allow that person 30 days to implement a reasonable remedy. Prescribes a criminal fine and/or up to five years imprisonment for violations of this Act. Authorizes a court to enter a permanent injunction enjoining any person convicted of a criminal offense under this Act from any activity related to illegal bets or wagers.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much will this affect US poker players?

Since this is a game of skill are we safe?

How will they enforce this federal law?

How many people will choose to ignore this law?

Who will do anything political with respect to this law?

And on a last note, is it ironic that the sponsor of this bill is Rep. Leach?

scotnt73
08-11-2004, 12:36 PM
how will they force this federal law?
they cant

i play online now and my state doesnt allow it. so im already playing illegally.

all they can do is stop the advertising on tv and the radio. this will stop the flow of fish i believe and make the games much tougher.

so the answer is get really good while you have the chance. we new guys(less than 2 years) are lucky. we get to actually make decent money while learning the game as opposed to actually paying our dues like the old guys did.

burntazure
08-11-2004, 12:48 PM
Yeah I don't think they can enforce it either. However, I am glad that they say that they give the parties 30 days to comply if ever they catch anyone. I think the fish will still come though. As long as poker stays popular. Young, internet savvy folks, can filter alot of information and all they have to do is search for poker to find these sites.

GWB
08-11-2004, 12:51 PM
The banning of gambling will be even less effective than the banning of pornography. We did ban pornography, didn't we?

scotnt73
08-11-2004, 12:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah I don't think they can enforce it either. However, I am glad that they say that they give the parties 30 days to comply if ever they catch anyone. I think the fish will still come though. As long as poker stays popular. Young, internet savvy folks, can filter alot of information and all they have to do is search for poker to find these sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think so to. and i hope you are right.

MiloBloom72
08-11-2004, 12:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The banning of gambling will be even less effective than the banning of pornography. We did ban pornography, didn't we?

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually no we didn't! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Obscenity is illegal. Not all pornography is obscene (at least, in the legal sense).

I don't think there will ever be any way they can prevent people from going off and playing at sites hosted overseas. What does concern me is whether they can make it difficult for people to cash out their winnings.

burntazure
08-11-2004, 01:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What does concern me is whether they can make it difficult for people to cash out their winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does seem to be their paramount method of attack. I believe most financial transactions use identification numbers for various institutions when doin electronic transfers. So, conceivably your banking institution could filter these transactions out, effectively nulling them. Who knows for sure though.

I hope GWB - if he is the real G-dub president - will not be alarmed by my apparently seditious rhetoric....

Overdrive
08-11-2004, 01:02 PM
In a case filed against the United States by Antigua, the World Trade Organization ruled that any attempt to restrict internet gambling by the United States was illegal and against World Trade agreements.

burntazure
08-11-2004, 01:08 PM
But maybe there is a distinction between restricting internet gambling in general and in not allowing US citizens to participate in transfering money to various account via financial institutions. We are already not free to make transfers to certain organizations by US gov't vis a vis Islamic "charities".


*Of course I am not advocating any donations to these charities; I am simply stating that we are already regulated in that regard.

moondogg
08-11-2004, 01:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In a case filed against the United States by Antigua, the World Trade Organization ruled that any attempt to restrict internet gambling by the United States was illegal and against World Trade agreements.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unforturnately (or fortunately?), the US probably doesn't give a rat's ass what the WTO says. The US basically told the UN to go *#%$ themselves over the whole Iraq thing, so I don't they are too concerned with what the WTO considers "legal".

cardcounter0
08-11-2004, 02:37 PM
See how they creep up on you?

When it was suggested "Hey, let's put blocks in place and pass Federal Laws to keep people from giving money to Bin Laden!"

Every one said, "Yes, what a great idea! Make it illegal to give money to those punks!"

Then they all turned around and beat the hell out of the liberal french-loving gay commie pinko in the back who suggested, "In a free country, aren't we allowed to give our money to who ever we want? What right does the government have to tell supposedly free citizens who they can give their money too?"

And now a year or two later, everybody forgets about the dead liberal french fry eating pinko they stomped. "Hey, the Governement is trying to keep me from funding my internet poker account!"
/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

djack
08-11-2004, 02:42 PM
Actually, it's quite likely that the WTO decision will make some difference.

For example, the WTO ruled against us when we imposed restrictions on steel imports to protect US steel producers. The US was forced to drop these restrictions. So clearly the US does give a "rat's ass" about what the WTO says.

Your parallel to UN and Iraq is not accurate. There were already several UN resolutions that authorized force. There was some discussion of the US getting another resolution that authorized force in that specific situation. When it became clear that that resolution would be vetoed BY FRANCE, the UK, US, and their allies decided to use force anyway.

Besides, one nation's leadership is alot more likely to disregard international bodies in cases of national security than economics. If they're wrong in national security, we're all dead. If they're wrong in economics, it could be bad, but we're still alive.

burntazure
08-11-2004, 02:55 PM
I hear you dude.

I think that there is a distinction, however. In a similar way that it is illegal for a US citizen to go to another country and fight against the US (e.g. Yasser Hamdi) there may be other stipulations against funding those aforementinoed forces. But in the end we all get it (e.g. Abner Louima).

As I see it there are 2 groups of people: those that believe the government has their best interests at heart and those who don't but simply acquiesce (the rest, if there are any, are statistical aberrations)....

Jeffro
08-11-2004, 02:57 PM
http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/inet_arch_feb00_main.html
Prohibition of Internet Gambling
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 February 2000, at 5:21 a.m.

I've been looking into this recently and it seems to me that sometime in the near future, there will be a U.S. Federal Ban on Internet Gambling.

I was wondering how this could legally affect the internet cardrooms like Planet and Paradise Poker. The wording of the current Congressional Bill seems to outlaw providing gambling services to U.S. Citizens - but as the cardrooms are outside the country, it doesn't seem like the United States could really do anything...

Is there anybody a little more knowledgeable on this that could enlighten me as to what the ramifications of this are going to be?

Thanks, ~DjTj

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 02:57 PM
Do a seach of this forum as this subject has been covered many times over. Im too lazy at the moment to restate my argument so click here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=722027&Forum=, ,,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=9& Limit=25&Main=722005&Search=true&where=&Name=3227& daterange=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post722027) .

Here are some useful links if you want to learn more:

Info on state gambling laws (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/)

Good commentary on HR 556 (http://cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/writers/view/name/Allyn_Jaffrey_Shulman)

Good legal journal article (http://law.richmond.edu/jolt/v10i3/article26.pdf)

enjoy,
cubs

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 03:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking into this recently and it seems to me that sometime in the near future, there will be a U.S. Federal Ban on Internet Gambling

[/ QUOTE ]

The federal government cant ban internet poker. It remains up to each individual state to decide on the legality of online gambling. Only Illinois, Louisiana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota and Wisconsin have laws that expressly make internet gambling illegal. New Jersey might be added to this list soon.

moondogg
08-11-2004, 03:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]

The federal government cant ban internet poker. It remains up to each individual state to decide on the legality of online gambling. Only Illinois, Louisiana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota and Wisconsin have laws that expressly make internet gambling illegal. New Jersey might be added to this list soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just in case you were running out of reasons to hate New Jersey...

Losing all
08-11-2004, 03:07 PM
I think his point was that that was posted 4 and a half years ago. Yet, we still click away

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 03:16 PM
US bilateral trade with Antigua: 141,000,000
US bilateral trade with the Eurpean Union: 379,000,000,000
Blowing your argument out of the water: Priceless

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Only kidding

burntazure
08-11-2004, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the post. Obviously I hope you are right. Your point about prior failed attempts to enact a similar law is plausible. In any case, I think we will have time to act if something hits the fan.

adios.

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 03:20 PM
oops...i missed the subtlety of his post

moondogg
08-11-2004, 03:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
US bilateral trade with Antigua: 141,000,000
US bilateral trade with the Eurpean Union: 379,000,000,000
Blowing your argument out of the water: Priceless

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Only kidding

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Yeah, I guess my obnoxious US-centric views on the matter didn't hold up too well. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Oh well, the UN and France still blow, though. At least grant me that much. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whoops, almost forgot...

*ahem* "IMHO"

PugX
08-11-2004, 03:24 PM
"It remains up to each individual state to decide on the legality of online gambling. Only Illinois, Louisiana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota and Wisconsin have laws that expressly make internet gambling illegal."

LOL! I guess Nevada is a really serious state which want to protect their citizens from gambling! Or what are their intentions? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Best regards,

Pug

djack
08-11-2004, 03:28 PM
Bilateral trade numbers don't affect my argument either way, and your assertion that they do only reflects your ignorance of the WTO.

moondogg
08-11-2004, 03:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Bilateral trade numbers don't affect my argument either way, and your assertion that they do only reflects your ignorance of the WTO.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ha ha, he's as dumb as me!

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 03:40 PM
Since im ignorant on this matter could you please tell me which body enforces WTO rulings? I look forward to your responce.

cubs

Cubswin
08-11-2004, 04:20 PM
Top 11 Gaming Tax Revenue States:

Illinois 777.9 million
Nevada 776.5
Indiana 702.7
Louisiana 448.9
New Jersey 414.5
Missouri 369
Mississippi 325
Michigan 250.2
Iowa 209.7
Colorado 95.6
South Dakota 70.4

States that have made internet gabling illegal: Illinois, Louisiana, Nevada, Oregon, South Dakota and Wisconsin.

Hmmmmm...no correlation here /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

CORed
08-11-2004, 05:11 PM
Looks like this is the annual Ban Internet Gambling bill, as always, introduced too late in the session to have a prayer of passing. It just gives the congress crittters and senators something to vote for, so they can tell the voters how they tried to save civilisation from internet gambling. In the unlikely event that it does pass, it will probably be unenforceable, because the gambling sites and companies like Netteller and Firepay are located outside the US.

Inthacup
08-11-2004, 05:18 PM
unenforceable, because the gambling sites and companies like Netteller and Firepay are located outside the US.

Neteller transactions to and from the state of Maryland are blocked. The government could block transactions to these off shore sites if they wanted to.

Cup