K J off suit... How to play it pre-flop?

[Ray Of Light]

I have just been having some interesting discussions in one of the other forums about how to play K J offsuit, that have changed my idea about how strong this hand is...

Their general recommendation has been to raise K J off from middle position, and in a very loose game, raise it from early position.

However, I have never raised this hand unless I was last to act up and up against 1 or 2 limpers. Also, I haven't read any poker book or article that advocates this kind of play.

Could someone tell me which list of hands dominate K J off, and also answer as to whether or not K J off is really a strong enough pre-flop hand to raise when in loose/passive games?

[mistrpug]

Lots of hands dominate it. In a loose game, I always fold KJ in EP. If you play it though you should raise, since it doesn't really play well against a lot of opponents.

[bernie]

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Their general recommendation has been to raise K J off from middle position, and in a very loose game, raise it from early position.

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If this is their 'general' rule, they're likely blowing alot of chips. Especially the loose game recommendation. There are times to do it, but that's far from the 'general' way or default way of playing it.

b

[cardcounter0]

Fold in early position, limp in middle position unless a solid player is already in from early position then fold it,
the only time I raise with it is when it is folded around to me and it is the blinds and maybe another player yet to act.
KJo gets you into trouble more often than it drags the big pot.

[Kaz The Original]

Hands that dominate KJ?
KQ, KK, KA, AA, QQ, JJ.

[tubbyspencer]

And AJ.

[AceSteve]

I hate this hand. I would rather have 72o. At least then I know what to do with it and don't lose money. KJo (in a loose game) will lose you more $ than it will win.
In a loose game, I only play this in late position.

[Louie Landale]

As with the other unsuited trouble hands, its a real dog if its dominated (say by AJ), tolerable dog if its beat (say by AQ), and a real good hand if its the best one going in.

No matter the game, its probably beat when played from early position; its about 50:50 to be the best hand from middle. Its a confortable favorite to be the best hand when played late so long as any callers WOULD have raised with a better hand.

Thus, dump it early no matter what (you are better off with 87s raise than KJo raise). Raise middle if you can control the opponents. Raise late so long as any limpers are reasonably assertive (and would have raised with AJ).

Those who advocate routinely raising with this hand early are out of their minds. You will tend to get bad players with weak hands like K9 to fold, but only get a play from stronger hands like AJ. Dominated trouble hands out of position are always losers no matter who the opponents are. True story. I hate it when that happens and so should you.

- Louie

[1800GAMBLER]

KJ UTG is only dominated behind you 1 in 3 times.

[astroglide]

where are you getting that stat? (not doubting it, just curious)

[Nottom]

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where are you getting that stat? (not doubting it, just curious)

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Warning, on the fly math coming ...

OK if you have KJ there are ...
AA, QQ - (12 ways)
KK, JJ - (6 ways)
AK, AJ, KQ - (36 ways)
= 54 hands that can dominate you out of 1225 possible hands.

Each player behind you thus has a 4.4% chance to have you dominated.

The chances that none of them have one are 95.6%^9 = 66.6%, so the chances you are dominated are about 1 in 3.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone tell me which list of hands dominate K J off, and also answer as to whether or not K J off is really a strong enough pre-flop hand to raise when in loose/passive games?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have taken to throwing away KJo unless I can raise first in from late or late middle position, or raise one weak mid/late limper from late position. Early/middle position or late position with many limpers I fold.

In loose games I'm not so much worried about domination as I am about schooling (when so many players come in that several will flop decent draws and one will likely hit, making your top pair an expensive hand that can only win small pots or lose big ones).

If I'm giving up any EV throwing this hand away so often, it can't be much. I'd rather wait for a nice suited hand or a better situation to play them.

[Louie Landale]

Your calculation is a little off since if one player doesn't have you dominated then he has LESS, on average, big cards resulting in an every-so-slight increased chance the next player DOES have you dominated. But that won't account for more than a couple percent. (The opponents cards are close, but not quite independant random events).

Anyway, you are beat but not dominated by 16-AQ and 6-each-TT,99,88 and 2-KJs for 36 more hands (and tied for another 7-KJo; but lets ignore that). That means each player has your 54 ways and my 38 ways or 92 ways to have you beat, or 7.5%; or 92.5% he doesn't. 92.5%^9 = 50.4% chance that you are BEAT.

So a third of the time you are beat real bad, 1/6 the time you are just beat, and half the time you have a reasonable best hand but are out of position with a relatively easy-to-read hand. That's not a good situation at all.

- Louie

[OrangeHeat]

Sold!

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Your calculation is a little off since if one player doesn't have you dominated then he has LESS, on average, big cards resulting in an every-so-slight increased chance the next player DOES have you dominated. But that won't account for more than a couple percent. (The opponents cards are close, but not quite independant random events).

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I'm not sure this really applys here. I mean if the first player has a hand you dominate, then its that much less likely that no one dominates you ... doesn't it all just balance out?

Either way, its not gonna change the number by enough to worry about.

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Anyway, you are beat but not dominated by 16-AQ and 6-each-TT,99,88 and 2-KJs for 36 more hands (and tied for another 7-KJo; but lets ignore that). That means each player has your 54 ways and my 38 ways or 92 ways to have you beat, or 7.5%; or 92.5% he doesn't. 92.5%^9 = 50.4% chance that you are BEAT.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are gonna do all this why not throw in the rest of the pairs and Aces as well, since you are also losing to them?

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So a third of the time you are beat real bad, 1/6 the time you are just beat, and half the time you have a reasonable best hand but are out of position with a relatively easy-to-read hand. That's not a good situation at all.


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And thus the reason I don't think anyone is advising that you play it in EP. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[pokerclacker]

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Hands that dominate KJ?
KQ, KK, KA, AA, QQ, JJ.

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don't forget AJ chief

And kaz, lets say someone raises with this from LP, and you're on BB, what would you call with, and how would you know they didn't hold AA-AT, KK-KT, QQ-QJ, JJ, TT, or any possible hand with a steal attempt?