probably simple question KQo, QJo

[jfresh]

First time playing 30/60 this weekend (usually play 15/30), and some hands I wouldn't mind playing for 20 bucks, I cringe at throwing in $40. horrible reasoning i know.

KQo, QJo in the blinds

one solid/tight MP raises preflop, one limper who calls and one cold-caller. QJo in SB... I personally folded and think that is the right play. unfortunately I would've won the pot by far when a J flopped and no one bet the flop. but still the right play to fold?

how about KQo in blinds to a solid raiser, and 1-2 iffy callers? It was brought to my attention that KQo is completely dominated by many raising hands, and if not, a coinflip over the others. worth throwing $40 into a ~240 pot?

KQo in the blinds, iffy raiser, 5 other callers. call now for pot odds? KQo doesn't have much of a huge draw potential though I know. I did win a huge pot this weekend hitting two miracle queens and avoiding any other draws though. but right play?

two small suited gappers

One EP raiser, one LP some what fishy cold caller... I have 75s in BB. I folded, while thinking the entire time I would call with 2 cold callers but fold to any less. Since only one called, I folded. And I folded the exact same hand (different suits obviously) as the LP caller.... and I would've made a straight flush (runner runner, but flop was checked around).

[steveyz]

I'll fold the QJo and call with the KQo hands, unless I knew the pf raiser to only raise with hands that dominate me.

[mmcd]

I fold the first 2 hands out of the sb if the raiser has any sense, and I'd call the 75s w/ a raiser and a coldcaller if the coldcaller is bad. These suited connecter type hands are easy to get away from if you play well post flop, and can drag some big pots if the game is aggressive.

[stoxtrader]

I think the QJo is an easy fold, the KQo an easy call and the 75s a fold, but close. Your thought process in analyzing these is good, but I don't like the reults oriented afterthoughts - I'm sure you realize what you "would have" made has no bearing whatsoever on the decision for a going forward basis.

best
stox.

[Garland]

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unfortunately I would've won the pot by far when a J flopped and no one bet the flop

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And I folded the exact same hand (different suits obviously) as the LP caller.... and I would've made a straight flush

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Results oriented thinking is bad. Please tattoo that on your wrists.

In my opinion QJo and KQo are clear folds from the SB to a raise, especially from a tight and solid player. Too often you're going against dominated hands that will cost you money far more often than you'll gain if you get lucky. Other detriments are the price you have to pay to play, 1.5 small bets, and your crappy position throughout the hand.

KQo is a different scenario from the BB as now you're only paying one more bet, and I'd call that in just about any situation for a raise from a tight solid UTG or UTG+1 raiser and everyone else folds to me.

QJo from the BB and a raise, I would play/pass depending on the raiser and how many callers. If you can play well postflop, and don't fall in love with top pair, questionable kicker then it's worth a play.

As for 75s getting one cold caller of a raise and 5.5:1 on your money, you're probably right to fold. With two cold-callers and getting 7.5:1, I'd probably call. But then again, I'm probably too tight from the blinds to begin with, so take that with a grain of salt.

Garland

[rory]

I fold QJo and KQo against a solid raiser in the SB every time. If fold KQo even if there are several callers in between me and the solid raiser-- I just don't like playing iffy hands out of position even if I am getting a discount. Often times the discount is very expensive.

I have the same criteria as you for the 75s hand-- if there is a raise and two callers I will toss in the extra chips to look at a flop. One caller I usually fold, but I will play if both of the players are really terrible. Here I don't mind playing crap so much even though my hand sucks and I am out of position because it is unlikely I am dominated and my hand is easy to get away from.

-rory

[onegymrat]

Well spoken.

[sam h]

Playing QJo out of the SB to an EP raise from a tight/good player is a good way to throw some money down the drain, no matter how many coldcallers there are. KQo should also be a fold here from the SB unless there are a lot of coldcallers and they all suck.

From the BB, I still fold QJo without a second thought in most cases and sometimes KQo.

Anybody who says that KQo is an easy call from the BB heads up against a tight/good EP raiser is looking at this game a lot differently than I am.

[Kaz The Original]

You have it completely backwards.

You want to call 75SOOTED heads up even. KQ is a muck vs a solid player.

KQ is easily dominated by AQ, AK, two extremely common raising hands.
75 suited, while much uglier, is not anywhere near as dominated, and much easier to tell when you're ahead or behind. You're getting 5:1 on what's likely no worse than a 2:1 dog at most!

[Garland]

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You're getting 5:1 on what's likely no worse than a 2:1 dog at most!

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Is 75s a 2:1 dog vs a big pair?

Garland

[jfresh]

i understand about staying away from results oriented thinking... it was just kind of tough playing 30/60 for the first time, getting AQo (flop Q) and AA cracked twice each, KK once, JJ 3 times (in 3 hands)... then mucking QJo to a button raise, SB reraise and flopping trip J's, and those two other QJo/75s 'win' huge pots.

Just needed some reassurance that I'm not playing overly tight, because I was thinking differently with 30/60 than 15/30 or 20/40.

[mmcd]

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You're getting 5:1 on what's likely no worse than a 2:1 dog at most!

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Is 75s a 2:1 dog vs a big pair?

Garland

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Obviously not, but there's a good chance he doesn't have a big pair, and when he does and 75s outflops him, there is usually going to be a big pot in a 30/60 game, esp. if the raiser knows the bb could very well try to resteal on a ragged flop like 752, or 864. Then theres always those 553 type flops where AA just can't give you credit for having a 5 and goes 3 or 4 bets on the turn. In some cases even heads up its possible to win the pot from a weak-playing opponent without flopping anything. The presence of 3rd loose playing opponent in the pot makes doing this that much easier. (although I would prefer to have the loose opponent be a limper between me and the raiser rather than a cold-caller) There are definately some players there that will call a flop checkraise w/ AK, AQ and then fold the turn unimproved. Playing these type of hands out of the blinds all comes down how you match-up with your opponents after the flop, and how quickly you can get away from it if you flop 2nd best. Reading skills are very important here, as you must be able to accurately percieve when your opponent is pushing AK or AQ. I guess this probably doesn't make much sense but you need to be able to get away from your hand sometimes on a 7-3-2 flop, and take some heat/call down with it sometimes on a J-9-5 flop depending on who your opponent is, how he plays, and your read on him.

[andyfox]

"some hands I wouldn't mind playing for 20 bucks, I cringe at throwing in $40. horrible reasoning i know."

Not necessarily. If it's because the players play better and/or more aggressively in the 30-60 than the 15-30 (which they do), then it's better to play tighter out of position. If it's because you're playing scared money, then don't play 30-60.

"unfortunately I would've won the pot by far when a J flopped and no one bet the flop. but still the right play to fold?"

Now there's horrible reasoning. Would you have said the same thing if you had 7-2o and a 7 flopped and no one bet?

[jfresh]

I did read him for a big pair actually, and he ended up having QQ, which he played weakly when a K flopped and checked.

[jfresh]

hmm... it does sound pretty ridiculous when you put it that way. it was actually more along the lines of, I read the raiser to be raising AA or KK. He was one of the tightest at the table, but very solid as well. There had been one or two limpers before him too, so that is why I gave him such a strong hand. However, my read was obviously wrong (very likely AKo/AKs then)

[sam h]

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Reading skills are very important here, as you must be able to accurately percieve when your opponent is pushing AK or AQ

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Ok. You call with 75s out of the blind. Flop comes T72 twotone, not your suit. Raiser bets, coldcaller calls. Is he pushing AK or AQ? Not sure yet? You call, turn comes a small brick. Raiser bets, now coldcaller folds. So is he pushing AK or AQ?

Don't give me the standard "it's all player dependent" line, because too many players will bet both streets here with both AQ and AA.

IMO, 75s is a bad call here three way since most of your equity against the raiser anyway is making a pair when he just has high cards and the presence of the third player screws everything up for you.

I also think its an easy fold heads up to a tight/good EP raiser as well. Those 553 flops when the other guy has AA you mentioned don't exactly come often. I think this a selective memory thing. People easily forget each time they toss another $15 away, but remember vividly that huge pot they won with the miracle flop.

[mmcd]

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Reading skills are very important here, as you must be able to accurately percieve when your opponent is pushing AK or AQ

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Ok. You call with 75s out of the blind. Flop comes T72 twotone, not your suit. Raiser bets, coldcaller calls. Is he pushing AK or AQ? Not sure yet? You call, turn comes a small brick. Raiser bets, now coldcaller folds.

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Any one who would take this line postflop should not be playing 30/60

[Kaz The Original]

So he plays AQ and AA the same way? How many ways to make both?

[Nate tha' Great]

Equity against semitight raiser [AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KJs, 76s, AKo-AJo, KQo] and semiloose cold caller TT-55, AQs-A7s, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s] for various hands.

KQo: 26.6%
QJo: 23.4%
75s: 22.9%

ATo: 25.3%
72o: 15.2%

Most hold 'em players have an irrational fear of being up against dominated hands. The 75s hand is playable here, but not really any more or less playable than hands like KQo or QJo or ATo. Yeah implied odds and reverse implied odds account for something but high card value is important too. Frankly all of these hands (save the 72o) should all be defended with in the BB assuming you play well postflop AND the raiser is not a rock, and none of them should be defended with if either of those conditions are violated.

[mmcd]

Preflop raise, bad cold caller, I call 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif out of BB.

Flop:

10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

there is a few different lines I could take here depending on the opponents, but I would NOT under any cirumstances check-call the flop and check the turn.

Line #1: I lead the flop. This may or may not slow down the pfr if he is holding AK. Obviously the presence of the 3rd player behind him will affect his play here. It makes some type of players more likely to raise (any semi-reasonable player would raise if they have a backdoor flush draw) but someplayers may be more likely to slow down as I am showing more strength by betting into 2 opponents rather than just one.

Line #2: I checkraise the flop. Given the positioning in this hand I think this line probably is the best. When I chekraise 2 players I am showing a fair amount of strength and the PFR will usually be very unlikely to get out of line w/AK or AQ in this spot. If he does have an overpair however, he will almost certainly 3-bet me wanting to get the coldcaller behind him out of the hand. By flat-calling PFR's flop bet, the somewhat loose cold-caller most likely has 2 overcards to this flop, and I expect them both to fold to a turn bet. A couple of added benefits from this line are that if the action goes bet, raise in front of me I can get away from the hand easily, and also by checkraising the flop I could get a weaker-playing cold-caller to fold a hand like 88 right on the flop after the PFR calls my checkraise.

Line #3: I check-call the flop and lead the turn. This line works best against weaker players that would sometimes just call down w/ AK here. These type of players would sufficiently suspicious of my play to call me down, but would be unlikely to bluff/semi-bluff raise me (without an overpair) fearing I flopped a monster. I am assuming here the PFR calls (or maybe even folds) and the cold-caller folds on the turn. Against some very weak opponents you can actually get them to FOLD an overpair here by lead 3-betting the turn.


As I said before though this hand would be much easier to play had the loose/fishy player limped in before the PFR.

[sam h]

You are right in that the line I layed out is pretty bad. But I don't like any of your lines either, and I guess thats the point.

I think checkraising into two players on a drawish flop in a small pot with second pair and no real redraws is a recipe for losing money. Overcards aren't folding for another small bet and the turn card will either pair somebody or give them a redraw to see the river often enough that you'll find yourself investing way too much with a mediocre holding only to find yourself out of position and uncertain of how to play the river.

Check-calling the flop and leading most turn cards I like if the third player folds the flop and you don't get threebet. But those are big ifs, and tough players will still put you to the test on a lot of turn cards.

My feeling is that flops like T72 are losing propositions overall out of position with 75s against two players who figure to have pretty good hands. And those flops are among the better flops you'll see.

[sam h]

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So he plays AQ and AA the same way? How many ways to make both?

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Well, obviously there are other hands he could have as well if you want to crunch the numbers. The larger point is that your answer suggests that you should just go to showdown here and hope for the best, which is a losing strategy in the long run.

[mmcd]

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My feeling is that flops like T72 are losing propositions ... And those flops are among the better flops you'll see.

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T72 is probably one of the worst flops for your hand because against most opponents you have to invest more money to find out where your at. Ignoring the obvious straight/flush/2pair/trips type of flops, I'd rather flop a draw, a 743 type of flop, or even a K 7 2 as it is easy to drop AQ AJ type hands right on the flop, and you will generally find out quickly if you are up against AK. With flops that contain an Ace or 2 paints and a 7 you can fold your hand confidently w/o investing any more money.


I don't think this flop is particularly draw heavy, and disregarding backdoor flushdraws, the only turn card that would put a redraw out there and force your opponent to see the river is a jack.

Though this situation is definately marginal if I take the checkraise the flop/ bet the turn line here I definately expect my opponents to both fold on the turn a high percentage of the time (assuming it is a blank)

In terms of putting in bets w 2nd pair here, given the situation thus far, your 7 no kicker might as well be a J-10 here beause we can assume the open raiser doesn't have a 10 in his hand, and unless the cold-caller is super-passive postflop he doesn't have a 10 or better either.

[sam h]

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T72 is probably one of the worst flops for your hand because against most opponents you have to invest more money to find out where your at. Ignoring the obvious straight/flush/2pair/trips type of flops, I'd rather flop a draw, a 743 type of flop, or even a K 7 2 as it is easy to drop AQ AJ type hands right on the flop, and you will generally find out quickly if you are up against AK. With flops that contain an Ace or 2 paints and a 7 you can fold your hand confidently w/o investing any more money.

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Well, the great majority of flops you will check-fold and thus have an expectation of 0 from the flop on. If T72 is worse than those, then it seems to stand to reason that whatever line you choose to play must have a negative expectation. So why not check-fold too? Obviously, flopping 743 would be better.

Maybe its different games, different plays. I don't play much online 30-60, but in the 15-30 games I definitely do not expect to take the pot on the turn very often after checkraising this flop and leading the turn into two players. I think there are many cards that will give redraws that people will take, like a third flush card, a nine, a jack, a queen, and maybe an 8. Nor do I expect 88 or 99 to fold a turn brick given that so many players will just hope you're on the flush draw and call you down.

I also see many passive players in the 15-30 that will coldcall preflop with something like QTs and then just call on this flop.

[Nate tha' Great]

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Well, the great majority of flops you will check-fold and thus have an expectation of 0 from the flop on. If T72 is worse than those, then it seems to stand to reason that whatever line you choose to play must have a negative expectation.

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You have a positive expectation on this flop against a typical range of raising hands, unless possibly you check-call the whole way.

[mmcd]

I meant worse not in terms of expectation, but in terms of being able to play it correctly after the flop. Getting max value when you are ahead, and losing the minimmum when you are behind. Its trickier to play than other situations, thats all.