How can I avoid always being shortstack on the bubble?

[filsho]

The home game I play in starts us with about 500 chips, blinds at 5-10 and doubling every half hour. I always play tight, but don't win enough hands to build a big stack. We usually pay out the top two spots (start w/6 or 7 players). I always seem to finish one place outta the money because I enter 3 handed play with about 700, the other two players each have the rest between them. Most of their stack building often comes from drawing out on all-in calls, winning major coin flips, or other plays that don't really seem smart to me. Any general tips or questions you could ask me & I could ask myself to help have a bigger stack when the blinds are at, say, 40-80? (level 4, usually our last or next to last level) FYI, the players are mostly loose & don't think about things like pot odds, position, or the like.

[MikeGuz]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of their stack building often comes from drawing out on all-in calls, winning major coin flips, or other plays that don't really seem smart to me.[ QUOTE ]


Like it or not this is a game of skill & LUCK - you are going to have to win coin tosses at some point to win tournaments the old saying "you have to win with AK and beat AK to win a tournament" holds up. Loosen up - you can't play AA & KK every hand starting 7 handed maybe you are playing to tight. Think semi-tight semi-aggressive - I have never seen a rock do very well in poker. Anyway you have stablished a rockish image with these guys time to bring out the testosetero and win some money.

[AA suited]

if u dont get the cards, then you'll be shortstacked. simple as that.

stay tight and dont change. yes, those loose players will get lucky and make top2, but they may also be the 1st or 2nd to be out. and more times than not they will not make it into the $.

the method of staying tight gives you better consistancy of reaching the bubble. from there, it's coin flip time. when you're down to 3BB, it's time to take a gamble and go all in with marginal hands (Ax, K9+, kXs).

now since you're face to face you should have a read on ho they play. you might be able to steal blinds as well to stay alive till you get good cards.

[filsho]

I guess I'm just frustrated because I haven't been in the money for a while in this game. All the players suck out on each other to build their big stacks. I can't bring myself to loosen up much because I hate seeing how they play. Thus, I take down one or two big pots to be only slightly above even when it gets to bubble time. Even with how tight I am, there's still no folding equity. I got busted out last night by Q3s against my A T. Couldn't believe it. I mentioned that I was at least a 60% favorite on that match up, guy said, "Stats don't matter, this is poker, the numbers don't mean anything." Yeah..and I can't beat this game, it's gettin to me.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]

Couldn't believe it. I mentioned that I was at least a 60% favorite on that match up,


[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... 1.5:1 is not exactly a longshot... or a sure thing. For every three times you win this confrontation, you will loose twice. The fact that this surprises you should be a huge concern.

Maybe there's your problem right there - getting trapped in situations where you think you're a big favorite and commit your whole tournament but you're really only a slight favorite.

[MikeGuz]

Very Very bad advice - a good tournament player has to know when to shift gears - sitting around getting blinded out waiting for a premo hand just won't cut it.

I consider a tightness a leak in a NLHE tournament. Tight is good but one has to shift gears too to be a complet or more complete player.

Don't play ABC poker good players will take you apart.

[lastchance]

It's not about being shortstacked on the bubble, it's about what you do when you are shortstacked on the bubble.

When blinds start getting up there, 20/40, you've got to loosen up a bit, and more importantly, start being aggresive, especially shorstacked.

When 40/80 comes around, and you have $700 this time, you've got to play on your tight image, and if they call, they call, you're only a 2:1 dog most of the time.

So, if you have about $700, the two other guys only have about $1500 each at this point, which means one double up here should mean that you money 70% of the time, and if you can play well shorthanded and heads up, you should win about 45% of the time.

I think you let that initial $700 stack of yours on the bubble become a stack of about $400 or less. Don't do that. Every possible blind becomes huge for you.

Almost never call in this situation. Bet and reraise. You want the blinds, anything else is extra. If you get your money in on Q3s vs. AT with $700, that's better than being run over to $400. Don't let yourself get run over when they bet. At this point, a coin-flip situation is GOOD. Close your eyes, and bet.

When it's folded to me in the small blind in this situation, and I have about $400-500, I push almost every time.

This is the same thing you should heads up when you get there.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm just frustrated because I haven't been in the money for a while in this game. All the players suck out on each other to build their big stacks. I can't bring myself to loosen up much because I hate seeing how they play. Thus, I take down one or two big pots to be only slightly above even when it gets to bubble time. Even with how tight I am, there's still no folding equity. I got busted out last night by Q3s against my A T. Couldn't believe it. I mentioned that I was at least a 60% favorite on that match up, guy said, "Stats don't matter, this is poker, the numbers don't mean anything." Yeah..and I can't beat this game, it's gettin to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted roughly this exact thing a week or two ago, saying that it always ended up as me and 3 big stacks, should I loosen up, what was I going to do, etc. I went through a terrible patch--9 straight out of the money and 18 out of 22. I was looking for leaks in my game, trying to figure out what it was, etc.

For me, it was 2 things. First, I was getting worse cards than normal, which I can't control and which has since turned around. Second, getting worse cards than normal was putting me ever so slightly on tilt. For me tilt manifests itself as lack of confidence, rather than overaggression. So when I'd get a hand, I'd be able to force myself to raise 3xbb preflop, but then I'd fold at the first sign of trouble on the flop. Or when my stack was at 10xbb I'd fold hands that I should've pushed with b/c I couldn't raise 3xbb w/o pushing and I was simply convinced that I'd lose. And other bad plays, etc. etc. etc. I knew I wasn't being aggressive enough, but since they wouldn't fold I couldnt' bring myself to play correctly.

The solution for me, oddly, was twofold: I took a few days off, and I multitabled when I came back. Multitabling keeps me out of the drama of any particular game, and the limited time to make each decision lets me say "clear raising hand. you have only 7xbb stack. push." and then I push and go on to the next hand. I don't get so caught up in the drama of each game, and I'm not trying to finesse my way into the money. Now I simply make the right plays on each table, and wake up at some point on each table and realize there are only 5 (or 4 or 3) people left) and play the endgame.

No, don't loosen up. Yes, hang in there. Yes, follow Aleo's 10+1 guide until you are winning consistently.

[Jason Strasser]

Hey Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
Don't play ABC poker good players will take you apart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Define ABC poker. If you mean playing correct odds, raising good starting hands, folding bad ones, and doing nothing fancy, you will be quite alright in any level of sng. Sure the really good players will find a way to add on to ABC play and make spectacular moves here and there when appropriate, but telling people not to play ABC poker is silly.

And this comment:

[ QUOTE ]
I consider a tightness a leak in a NLHE tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be misinterpreted. Tight, aggressive play is good always. You have to adjust that tight aggressive play towards stack sizes, the size of the blinds, and the payout structure. So folding A7o UTG is good tight, aggressive play, and pushing A7o on the button 4 handed with 7xBB is also a tight, aggressive play.

-Jason

[filsho]

Thanks for the advice all..Looks like I should try to be more open to agression and more aware of when to switch gears. I'll start paying more attention to that. Cry Me a River, I know I lose that 60% hand fairly often, I was only using that to point out the types of players I play against. "Any two can win" ya know. I'll let everyone know how it goes..anything else comes to mind, keep the advice comin!