OMG... poor play, huge pot

[EdSchurr]

I'm not sure where I went wrong here. I haven't started analyzing it yet in depth. However, I figured I was drawing but made a bad call on the turn. I can't believe the showdown.

MP3 hasn't been so maniacal before afaik. People are all passive and call almost everything.
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (24.40 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (14.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (18.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 22.70 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 22.70 BB, between BB and MP3.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (22.70 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 4d 6d (two pair, fours and threes).
MP3 shows Qs Jh (one pair, threes).
Outcome: BB wins 22.70 BB. </font>

[The13atman]

Why are you 3-betting PF with 66? Sure, it may warrant a call, even UTG, if this table is as loose and passive as you say, but I'd never even consider 3-betting. Also, I'm throwing this away on the flop if I don't hit my set.

EDIT: Hmmm, I didn't pay too much attention to the pot sizes before I replied. I guess you do have the odds to call on the flop and turn, however I still feel you should not have 3-bet this flop.

[Riposte]

Your preflop play is kind of weird. A call, and then a 3-bet... UTG? I don't play pocket 6s in early position, but I haven't read SSH yet. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Flop call is okay, since the pot is ginormous now. On the turn you pick up a gutshot straight, so the turn call looks fine.

The river is where my analysis ends. I don't know the answer.

[EdSchurr]

I'll give you my reasoning, but it could very well be faulty. I'm rushing through SSH so I have an overview of everything when I can read it slowly the second time and finally do the quizzes (and again and again).

It wasn't on the flop that there was 3-betting though.

I'm UTG, and it has been a passive table. Seems like at least a good call normally. I didn't want to raise because it's only 66 and I am UTG. But when there were some limpers and there was the raise I thought ppl would certainly call 2-bets now, and I figured I was owed a good portion of the pot. I still don't understand pot equity but that's what I'm getting at.

But anyway, I'm still embarrased by the play. I posted it mainly for the amusing gigantic pot I lost, and I'm going to follow it up later after I've referenced SSH a few times. I hope to get comments at that point if my corrections are faulty.

From the flop onward I'm drawing as I'm not sure what to do. But the turn call wasn't correct for drawing (2 outs is about 22:1 against and the pot was 14:1, but I thought it would be 16:1 when ppl called, which they didn't--and that wasn't good enough anyway).

Figured two pair 66 would be no good at all, and I missed my set afterall. But I think from now on I'll have to call that one bet if the pot is so big and I do some have sort of hand, even if I think I'm beat. However, on the flop and turn there are probably things to do so I can gauge my opponents hands better...

[The13atman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you my reasoning, but it could very well be faulty. I'm rushing through SSH so I have an overview of everything when I can read it slowly the second time and finally do the quizzes (and again and again).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I haven't read SSH yet, so perhaps you are right, however I'm generally a pretty tight player and would probably call with 66 UTG at a passive table but fold to a raise.


[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't on the flop that there was 3-betting though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, meants to type PREflop in the last part of the edited section.


[ QUOTE ]
But the turn call wasn't correct for drawing (2 outs is about 22:1 against and the pot was 14:1, but I thought it would be 16:1 when ppl called, which they didn't--and that wasn't good enough anyway).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it was. On the turn you're drawing to 4 outs (You now have an inside straight draw (any 5) as well as the two 6's so the odds are 7.7:1.

[Nottom]

when you call the turn you are essentially committing yourself to showing down on the river baring a significant change on the river.

[Riposte]

Would that river raise be considered a significant change? Is that what you mean?

[AncientPC]

I don't understand why you called the 3-bet with low pockets.

I usually fold those to PFR's as well. You said yourself it was a passive table, so for any PFR it would've meant pockets or better cards.

AFAIK, pockets only have 2 outs on the flop. Chances are you're beat if any possible overpairs show up on the table unless it's checked all the way to the river in which I'd raise and occasionally catch an A high or low pair.

[Nottom]

The raise certainly is a show of strength that wasn't there before an Ace might also be enough to change my mind. Of course I'm not actually advocating the turn call, but I'm just saying that usually when you do make that call you must think you have some chance of having the best hand and commit yourself to calling at least 1 bet on the river or else you shouldn't have called to begin with since you have such a small chance to actually improve.

[cnfuzzd]

First, dont post the results with the hand. It will allow everyone to focus on the play, not which direction the pot went.

Second. I hate doing it, but i am calling this river everytime. It would have to come to me for two cold not to, and even then im not sure. Crying calls suck, but sometimes they have to be made. Especially with only one overcard to your pair.

peace

john nickle

[kenewbie]

Limping is ok, 3-betting is not.

k

[chief444]

Call the pf raise.

Check/raise the flop.

Check/raise the turn since you fogot to raise the flop.

I would probably call the river. I would consider both raising and folding though. At first I thought raising might be best but now I think I may just be being results oriented since you posted results against the constant advice of bisonbison.

[EdSchurr]

I'm not convinced that my pf play was completely wrong. My analysis will be simplistic however:

There are 6 people total, and I figured everyone would call if I reraised. There are 8.5 SB already, and if everyone calls a reraise by me then there will be 18.5 SB (if the raiser doesn't cap), 2 SB of which I've just put in. So I'm contributing 11%.

Assume my sixes will win everytime I hit a set. That's roughly 12% of the time. So my equity to the pot is 12%. It's probably even higher because I'm almost certainly getting to the turn and the turn is another chance at a set.

So there is a pot equity edge of at least 1%. Reraising if everyone will call and nobody caps is greater EV than calling.

That's how I think it goes, but I'm unsure of how pot equity works. Maybe I'm contributing a massive 17% instead. The example in SSH doesn't make it entirely clear, but it uses a figure obtained like the latter.

Of course, since someone folded it did become lesser EV, maybe negative. I guess I should have expected at least one person to fold. Calling was best.

[EdSchurr]

I don't know where I got the idea that someone folded preflop. Anyway, I think I am contributing 17%. So I'd need 9 people there for a reraise to be correct, unless I'm misunderstanding pot equity.