Other than my drunken pre-flop call, how did I do?

[colgin]

Moderately loose, very passive table. Other than my egregious, drunken pre-flop call, what do you think of the rest of the hand.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (5 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between BB, Hero and SB.</font>

All comments are appreciated.

Colgin

[me454555]

Even you're drunken preflop call isn't too bad given the table condtions. If the table is very passive and you'e not expecting a raise, limping isn't terrible w/that hand.

The rest of the hand looks fine to me. I'm not quite sure why you posted it though. What did you want to do differently?

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure why you posted it though. What did you want to do differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you consider re-raising the river?

[balkii]

You must have been really wasted. Because when I am just regular drunk 87s UTG is definitely a RAISE not a limp.

[me454555]

Oopps sorry, didnt see that. I would definatly reraise that river.

[cnfuzzd]

I would reraise the river, but i wouldnt be surprized to see BB turn over T7. Monsters under the bed again. Although if you think SB would usually not call the reraise, going for the overcall is never a bad idea.

peace

john nickle

[bisonbison]

Guys, can someone walk me through the logic of a river reraise? I'm trying to get over some late street weakness and I would never reraise here.

[me454555]

I'd just raise b/c I don't think anyone else has another 7. I can't see anyone playing a strait like this and I think more often then not you're good. Just my opinon though.

[me454555]

I think going for the overcall here is way too weak here. 1) Sb bet out so hes likely to have a hand he's willing to make a crying call with. 2) when you call, your risking 2 bets to make 4. A reraise only costs 1 more bet and makes 2 additional bets b/c I think theres a good chance sb will call and you win the hand.

If BB just bet out here, I think an overcall is the right play b/c sb may not call 2 cold. Since sb bet out and BB raised, you have too much hand to fold and I think you're good here enough times that a raise will pay off.

[joker122]

I think BB has T7 so I'd just call 2 cold on the river...I'm pretty weak tight though.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Preflop call ain't bad at all at a loose passive table, though I usually don't do it.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, can someone walk me through the logic of a river reraise? I'm trying to get over some late street weakness and I would never reraise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

bisonbison,

I wanted to raise the issue to see peoples' reactions but I don't think a raise here makes sense. I planned to raise, of course, until BB suddenly came alive. I think if I re-raise here I probably win the same amount than if I call (since my raise will likely knock out SB who probably cals one more back to him)when my hand is good (and give up no more than 1 BB if SB would call 2 bets back to him) but lose two more when I am behind to trips with a better kicker or a full house (two logical holdings for BB). If BB is bluff-raising (unlikely with 2 opponents but you never know at Party) then he will (presumably) fold to a re-raise. So I agree with you that I don't see the point in re-raising but I did want to check with others to make sure I was not being weak here.

Colgin

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop call ain't bad at all at a loose passive table, though I usually don't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is a little loose for the typical Party $3/6 (but not the $2/4), but probably not as egregious as I first stated.

[colgin]

SB had Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, BB had J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and MHIG. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for your responses.

Colgin

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
You must have been really wasted. Because when I am just regular drunk 87s UTG is definitely a RAISE not a limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? 87s wants as many people in the pot as possible because you are really looking for the a straight draw or a flush draw. a preflop raise doesnt accomplish this.

i fold 87s in ep btw. i want to see 3 or more ppl already in the pot before i limp along.

[Trix]

I fold this flop and dont reraise the river either. The guy have been calling all the way and suddenly wake up. This usually means he just hit a strong hand and there aren´t many 7s weaker than yours. If he is just beeing a clown and raising a missed draw, then 3betting might make SB fold, which you dont like either.

As for the flop, SB bet into 4 players, which usually means atleast TP on a board like this. With the caller you cant be sure that your 8 or 7 is good. Mostly the 8. If you hit on the turn, then they will have redraws.

I dont think you have the best hand on the turn, did you ? If you didn´t, then you should take the freebie as they aren´t going to fold here. "Moderately loose, very passive table"

I like the coldcall on the river. Not to happy with the rest though.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think you have the best hand on the turn, did you ? If you didn´t, then you should take the freebie as they aren´t going to fold here. "Moderately loose, very passive table"


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I thought it highly unlikely that I had the best hand on the turn. But having picked up a flush draw and double-belly buster straight draw I now have 20 outs. Granted, not all of them may be good. Still, given this many outs, plus the possibility (albeit slight) of getting one of these two players (both of whom may be ahead of me now) to fold, plus possibly getting a free showdown (although my hand probably does not have much showdown value without improvement) makes this seem like a bet on the turn when checked to me. Without picking up both sets of addditional outs, I would have checked.

[Cleveland Guy]

I'm wiht you Bison. You have to call the trips. But why re-raise. What can possible beat you?

7x where x = A-T
T8
68
99
JJ
55
J7
97
75

Way to many possible better hands there to re-raise. Plus if someone has one of those hands - they will probably re-raise back at you (unless it's 68). Now you've taken off 2 more bets when you have far from the nuts.

[BigEndian]

Pot is small, you have thin draws - fold the flop.

- Jim

[slogger]

It is simply remarkable how bad many players are. Hard to imagine SB or BB playing that hand any worse. SB, just lays around with a premium pair for almost the entire hand, then once he's given everyone a fair chance to suck out on him, he bets into two players, one of whom has show aggression on every street. BB does the standard loose-passive "call any bet with any piece or any draw" and then decides to get cute with his TPNK when a scare card hits the river. Awesome!

[MAxx]

My opinion is different. I do not think a reraise is +EV here. I think the bet then raise before you with this board indicates a high probability that you are behind often enough that a reraise is pissing off more chips in the long run. I think you gotta call 2 cold here and hope for the best. I admit I have not crunched any numbers or run any sims... b/c I don't break it down like that yet. This is just my poker intuition disagreeing with your poker intuition.

[me454555]

And they both would have called a reraise on the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[me454555]

Fold? No way, I count 9 outs 4 Ts, 2 7s 1.5 for the bd flush draw and I'd say an 8 wins 50% of the time if its heads up against sb giving me a total of 9 outs w/6 sbs in the pot when it gets to you. This is a clear raise to protect you're hand and try to isolate sb. Theres also a small chance you're actually ahead of sb. Raising this flop is the best play by a mile.

[me454555]

All the hands you're describing are possible but lets look at the ones that are most likely.

Sb didnt show much strenth throughout the hand leading me to discount him as having a hand that beats you. BB is the real problem in this hand as you are not sure where he stands.

If he's flopped a monster and decided to slowplay it to the river, well, them's the brakes. More likely, he flopped something, is hanging on and doesn't believe you have the 7. Giving him credit for a flopped strait or 2 pair is way too tight here. The only hands I'm worried about are Q7, K7, A7. The great thing about theses hands is that you probobly won't get capped So this becomes, risk 1 to get 3 more into the pot.

Since you're most likely ahead of sb and he will probobly call 2 here since this is party and thats what people do, I think a raise here + EV b/c even if you're only ahead of bb 25% of the time.

[Yeknom58]

I don't think the flop raise is as bad as others are saying, but I'm not sure it's good either. The pot is rather small and you only have bottm pair and a gutshot+runner draws.

I do think not taking the free card on the turn was pretty bad. Your bet really does nothing to protect your hand and I don't think your edge is big enough that you can profitably bet the turn. At best your turn bet is even money.

I like the CC on the river.

[me454555]

A raise is manditory on the flop if you're going to play it. This becomes a raise or fold situation b/c you have so many 1 card draws. A raise on the flop will push out 8s and Ts which gives you 5 extra outs (a T would have split the pot so you effectively turned 2 outs into 4 outs by eliminating other 8s)

If you're not going to raise this you might as well fold.

[Yeknom58]

"If you're not going to raise this you might as well fold"

Exactly, where did I disagree with this point exactly?

In no way do I think calling is the best action or did I state that in my post. I do agree that IF he is going to play he should raise...my point was that some people were saying this is an easy fold and I'm not so sure thats the case, and that maybe raising wasn't as bad as some people were saying.

[BigEndian]

You have two players - no isolation possible. This is a board that is a) extremely draw heavy and b) is unlikely to not have touched someone in a way that puts you on the draw.

You are playing for your outs getting marginal odds in a pot that is small AND drawing to the ignorant end of a straight as well as a teeny backdoor flush - fold, next hand.

It's not even close. It you are raising flops with these hands and pots this small, you are flushing chips.

Now, if the pot was 10SB+, then you're on to something.

- Jim

[Trix]

I think you gotta check it through anyway. This will also increase the chance of beeing bet into on the river, meaning you can get a raise in when you improve. Especially with the more hidden outs.

[BigEndian]

Don't let the results sway your thinking. Also, consider yourself fortunate that the ladies didn't 3-bet you out of your seat.

- Jim

[me454555]

It may be a teeny bd flush, but both cards are in your hand. If it hits, I think its good

Even though you're drawing to the ignorent end of the strait, its only ignorent if someone has exactly KQ or Q8 (both hands unlikely but possible)

The pot has 7 sbs when it comes to. You only need 6 outs to call this and even with the discounted outs, 2 7s are likely good along w/the bd flush that makes 3.5 outs. If the T is good more than 50% of the time, which I think it is, calling is +EV. If your raise can knock out the 2 mps, there is a good chance you can get a free card on the turn giving you 2 chances to hit a T or a 7.

The decision is a lot closer than I thought it was before but you have too much hand to fold and calling seems very wrong.

[nepenthe]

The thought processes of these weak players who don't play top pair or overpair aggressively can be summed up as follows: they don't want to invest a lot of bets just to see an Ace or flush hit the turn/river; rather, they'll just limp along and by the river, if everything looks safe, they'll bet/raise then. I see these type of players all the time at Party. What they don't realize, of course, is that they're letting you off easy if you're drawing all the way, and getting aggressive when the missed draws won't pay them off and the suckouts will punish them for having been so goddamned stupid. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
The thought processes of these weak players who don't play top pair or overpair aggressively can be summed up as follows: they don't want to invest a lot of bets just to see an Ace or flush hit the turn/river; rather, they'll just limp along and by the river, if everything looks safe, they'll bet/raise then. I see these type of players all the time at Party. What they don't realize, of course, is that they're letting you off easy if you're drawing all the way, and getting aggressive when the missed draws won't pay them off and the suckouts will punish them for having been so goddamned stupid. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, of course. Needless to say (I hope) I obviously would have folded the flop if the BB had raised. I am sure both the SB and BB were cursing their bad luck and not their passive play.

[maurile]

Hero obviously didn't know what his opponents were holding on the flop, but for what it's worth, here were the pot equities at the time:

8/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif -- 0.362
Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif -- 0.473
J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif -- 0.165

Hero had more than his fair share of the pot equity on the flop, so in this particular case, the raise was profitable even apart from giving himself the option to take a free card on the turn. (It would not have been profitable, however, if J4 had folded -- especially if QQ had decided to three-bet him.)