A homeless nut..... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

z32fanatic

08-10-2004, 11:11 PM

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I think this guy McManus is the one disrespecting the game

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Do you know who this guy McManus is ?? Only in televised Poker do you see so many idiots disgracing their "sport". Between mr soup kitchen and the b*tch I'd say the game took a few steps back tonite.

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I see many football and basketball players disrespecting their sport. Kellen Winslow for example. I thought poker would be one of the sports where this didn't occur.

RowdyZ

08-10-2004, 11:17 PM

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Raising in the dark. What a move! And the guy who claims HE'S disrespecting the game calls down with Q high. I think this guy McManus is the one disrespecting the game

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How is calling down a maniac disrepecting the game? It might very well have been disrepecting Powers but not the game.

RowdyZ

08-10-2004, 11:20 PM

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What's his story?

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Here is the Pokerpages story.

http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/result8740.htm

He was homeless but has been winning at poker lately.

RowdyZ

08-10-2004, 11:21 PM

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McManus is a complete tool.

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But pretty good poker player.

GuyOnTilt

08-10-2004, 11:31 PM

But pretty good poker player.

Not in my opinion. He is a nitty tool though. And the ESPN broadcast tonight had no bearing on my opinion of him; it only reinforced it.

GoT

RowdyZ

08-10-2004, 11:42 PM

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But pretty good poker player.

Not in my opinion. He is a nitty tool though. And the ESPN broadcast tonight had no bearing on my opinion of him; it only reinforced it.

GoT

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looking at the results of the tournaments he does play he seems to do pretty well.

daryn

08-11-2004, 12:20 AM

oh come on, you should know better than to be so results oriented! i'm just talking about this one event.

AtlBrvs4Life

08-11-2004, 12:35 AM

He seemed like a cool guy from reading his book. Apparently not.

RowdyZ

08-11-2004, 01:09 AM

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He seemed like a cool guy from reading his book. Apparently not.

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We saw about 20 minutes are so of highlights of Powers act. Perhaps being at his table for a few hours would make you "uncool" to.

Shaun

08-11-2004, 03:34 AM

I like playing with people who are having fun. I don't like tight-a** nits who get mad everytime someone has a laugh or gambles it up a little bit. Powers was fun to watch and you could tell he appreciated where he was. In my opinion the other guy was out of line to make the "disrespecting the game" comment.

TwoNiner

08-11-2004, 03:41 AM

Mcmanus was just trying to fit in with the pros at the table and thought he would get support with his comments. You could tell he was dissapointed when they totally disagreed. Great writer though.

Odder

08-11-2004, 03:44 AM

its disrespectful to make a legal move, lol

$DEADSEXE$

08-11-2004, 05:56 AM

I doubt everyone would have been so cheery if it was NL and Powers was giving people bad beats....
Limit takes out alot of the fear involving a maniac player

Rushmore

08-11-2004, 08:17 AM

If you haven't played poker with a guy exactly like this Powers guy, you haven't put in your time in poker.

McManus made a huge mistake "calling him out" about "disrespecting the game," not because he was wrong, but because it drove Powers' play further into the style that McManus would have trouble with. It also made McManus look even nittier than he already did, which certainly couldn't help.

Lastly, the emotional reaction McManus had both to Powers AND to the negative reaction of a table full of pros at a WSOP final table really didn't help at all. You could see he was tilting on several fronts.

If you cannot laugh at these guys and dismiss them until they self-destruct, you might find yourself negatively effected by someone whose chips you really ought to have in front of you.

Sorry if this response isn't as "fun" as some of the others, but we're talking about a bracelet at stake. I thought that might merit a little actual analysis.

Maybe that's a little nitty in its own right.

drewjustdrew

08-11-2004, 08:59 AM

I've read some articles by him, but not the book. A couple of years ago I was watching a final table at the WSOP. He sat down with the press guys. The guy next to me, a complete stranger, tells me something like "that's Jim McManus. He's an a-hole". He didn't go into why, but I guess it was confirmed last night. Very self-important.

ohgeetee

08-11-2004, 09:27 AM

Jim McManus LOVES poker. Not neccessarily the money, the math, nor the players, but he LOVES poker. He loves the history, the place you put yourself and the idea behind the game when you sit down, etc. It shows in his book as well as his articles.

People like Ellix Powers love the money. There isn't anything neccessarily wrong with either option, but its understandable for someone who is there for the sport of it to get peeved at an obnoxious deadbeat.

McManus was wrong about him disrespecting the sport, but the guy was definitely an [censored], and I can only imagine how much of that he had to put up with at that table and before. It was a mistake on McManus's part as well to let it put him on tilt.

He's an Irish author, not the most soft spoken personalities around. At the end, you could tell he was over it, and once the game was over, Ellix even seemed to be gracious about the game, and was a good "winner." McManus also graciously accepted his defeat and went out respectably.

The "bitch" though, is a whole new level. Total trash, and about as camera hungry and obnoxious as one could get.

SossMan

08-11-2004, 12:13 PM

aparently he used to be homeless, according to the announcers.

Beavis68

08-11-2004, 12:39 PM

I don't think that Ellix loves the money, I think he loves the play. If he loved the money, he wouldn't be getting up in the middle of the game and making phone calls.

I am sure he would have pissed me off too, but at thta level of play - you gotta be able to deal with anything.

wayabvpar

08-11-2004, 12:57 PM

I thought Powers was extremely annoying, both in his ADD personality and his play. However, McManus was wrong to call him out on it- better just to keep quiet, play good cards, and bust his jabbering ass.

DrSavage

08-11-2004, 01:43 PM

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McManus is a complete tool.

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But pretty good poker player.

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NO. God, no. Reading his book and watching him play shows his total lack of game understanding very clearly in my opinion.

SossMan

08-11-2004, 01:51 PM

I haven't watched him play enough to judge, but by watching last night and reading his book, it sure seems like he is in love with the call. Not usually a recipe for success.

RowdyZ

08-11-2004, 02:37 PM

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McManus is a complete tool.

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But pretty good poker player.

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NO. God, no. Reading his book and watching him play shows his total lack of game understanding very clearly in my opinion.

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His play in the book was questionable at times but "total lack of game understanding" 5th place in the WSOP and a couple of bad beats from a possibly higher finish? Also since then he has posted pretty good results in tournaments as he learned. As for last night how much "play" did we see, we saw the drama hands. Yeah he called the crackhead down with a Q high (not a J high likethe guy kept rambling on about) but Powers only had a King high so his read really wasn't off. Also if you read Andy Glazer full report he wasn't the only one who was calling down Powers with subpar hands, his probably just got shown because Powers made such a big deal out of it. I agree with Glazers assesment, He really needs to work on his short handed play but his game is much better now then in 2000. We just saw little snapshots of what happened. according to the report Powers just didn't leave the table once but several times. He didn't bet in the dark just once but several times. He didn't cap the betting with a junk hand once but several times. Remember we only get to see what ESPN thinks is interesting in a about 45 minutes.

As for Powers not needing the money, yeah money must be pretty important to him, In the Bike tournament when he got headsup with Jim Miller Powers hand a 10-1 chip lead and agreed to an even split on the deal.

TwoNiner

08-11-2004, 03:19 PM

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, but by watching last night and reading his book, it sure seems like he is in love with the call. Not usually a recipe for success.

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I suppose your talking about him calling down TJ's bluff in the 2000 world series?

Rushmore

08-11-2004, 03:34 PM

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Yeah he called the crackhead down with a Q high (not a J high likethe guy kept rambling on about) but Powers only had a King high so his read really wasn't off.

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Although his "read wasn't off," his play was WAAY off, because I don't know a single decent player who doesn't consider that a raise or fold situation. It was an utterly terrible call. Awful. Abysmal. Sub-optimal. -EV. Whatever.

You simply cannot call there. If you're trying to pick of a bluff, which he obviously was, you have clearly got to consider the possibility that the guy is bluffing with the best hand, which the guy was.

Raise or fold there, no doubt about it. Not a mistake a really seasoned and expert player would make.

RowdyZ

08-11-2004, 03:54 PM

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Yeah he called the crackhead down with a Q high (not a J high likethe guy kept rambling on about) but Powers only had a King high so his read really wasn't off.

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Although his "read wasn't off," his play was WAAY off, because I don't know a single decent player who doesn't consider that a raise or fold situation. It was an utterly terrible call. Awful. Abysmal. Sub-optimal. -EV. Whatever.

You simply cannot call there. If you're trying to pick of a bluff, which he obviously was, you have clearly got to consider the possibility that the guy is bluffing with the best hand, which the guy was.

Raise or fold there, no doubt about it. Not a mistake a really seasoned and expert player would make.

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Borrowed from the Andy Glazer report.

Because Powers’ game was so unusual and unpredictable, he was throwing off everyone else; standards were changing, and players were making calls and raises with hands they would never normally have considered even playing, much less attacking with. Say what you will about how many floors his mind’s personal elevator stops at, Ellix Powers approach threw some of the world’s finest off balance, and he played fearlessly.

Rushmore

08-11-2004, 05:14 PM

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Borrowed from the Andy Glazer report.

Because Powers’ game was so unusual and unpredictable, he was throwing off everyone else; standards were changing, and players were making calls and raises with hands they would never normally have considered even playing, much less attacking with. Say what you will about how many floors his mind’s personal elevator stops at, Ellix Powers approach threw some of the world’s finest off balance, and he played fearlessly.

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One might be able to be "thrown off," but one doesn't totally forget how to play.

What's the thinking with McManus? Is he saying to himself," I will call, so that I can might pick off most of the bluffs that he might be making?"

Obviously not. He doesn't have the game to know that he's raising or folding here.

Dominic

08-11-2004, 05:16 PM

I don't know about that...two final tables at the WSOP, including the main event...can't be THAT bad a player...

Dominic

08-11-2004, 05:20 PM

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Ellix Powers approach threw some of the world’s finest off balance, and he played fearlessly.

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Why is it when most people say someone plays "fearlessly," what I'm really hearing is, "he played like an idiot?"

toots

08-11-2004, 08:20 PM

Don't care if Ellix played like a fool or fearlessly. I quite enjoyed watching him enjoying himself. I enjoyed watching him put the emotional screws to the self-appointed table tool. Above all, I agree with him that if you can get upset over winning $40K, there's something wrong with you.

Emoney

08-11-2004, 09:19 PM

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Don't care if Ellix played like a fool or fearlessly. I quite enjoyed watching him enjoying himself. I enjoyed watching him put the emotional screws to the self-appointed table tool. Above all, I agree with him that if you can get upset over winning $40K, there's something wrong with you.

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it's a tournament. the goal is to win.

jwvdcw

08-11-2004, 09:38 PM

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"Where mah money?, who here gonna gimme mah money!" after he is knocked out. Great.

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/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

that was classic

jwvdcw

08-11-2004, 09:40 PM

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I doubt everyone would have been so cheery if it was NL and Powers was giving people bad beats....
Limit takes out alot of the fear involving a maniac player

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great point

jwvdcw

08-11-2004, 09:45 PM

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The "bitch" though, is a whole new level. Total trash, and about as camera hungry and obnoxious as one could get.

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agreed.

Rushmore

08-11-2004, 09:50 PM

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Why is it when most people say someone plays "fearlessly," what I'm really hearing is, "he played like an idiot?"

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So true.

Fearlessly and Without ability for rational thought are utterly different things.

jwvdcw

08-11-2004, 09:51 PM

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Don't care if Ellix played like a fool or fearlessly. I quite enjoyed watching him enjoying himself. I enjoyed watching him put the emotional screws to the self-appointed table tool. Above all, I agree with him that if you can get upset over winning $40K, there's something wrong with you.

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it's a tournament. the goal is to win.

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the goal is different for different people. If an ordinary guy makes the final table at the WSOP but doesn't win it all, I'd still call it a successs.

jwvdcw

08-11-2004, 09:52 PM

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Ellix Powers approach threw some of the world’s finest off balance, and he played fearlessly.

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Why is it when most people say someone plays "fearlessly," what I'm really hearing is, "he played like an idiot?"

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Its funny how the line between fearless and idiotic is so hazy sometimes.

vulturesrow

08-11-2004, 09:55 PM

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it's a tournament. the goal is to win.

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Please. Spare me. I am as competitive as anyone here but how many people do you think would play for 1st if they were told they only got the bracelet but no money or could take second and get a lot of money. Not many. If I won 40k in a poker tournament, Id be kissing every hairy motherfucker at that table. Id even kiss "the bitch".

Chris

bdk3clash

08-11-2004, 10:02 PM

More than any other, this episode of the 2004 World Series of Poker did a good job of introducing the casual viewer to the various types of degenerates and scumbags you'll find playing poker.

West

08-11-2004, 10:48 PM

While his attitude towards money may be refreshing, he was an ass.

That being said, McManus telling him that he was disrespecting the game by raising in the dark was obviously ridiculous.

West

08-11-2004, 10:51 PM

Hell, from the hands I saw, I'm not convinced that Powers wouldn't have called a raise on the end with his king high.

Malarky

08-12-2004, 12:08 AM

When McManus said "Poker is a beautiful game." I couldn't stop laughing.

I mean, it is a great game, but saying that just makes you sound like a tool.

-Syk-

08-12-2004, 12:22 AM

I don't know who was uglier. Ellix or the female at the table. Classless idiot who resembled the girl ape from the newer Planet of the Apes (apologies to apes everywhere).

Emoney

08-12-2004, 01:02 AM

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it's a tournament. the goal is to win.

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Please. Spare me. I am as competitive as anyone here but how many people do you think would play for 1st if they were told they only got the bracelet but no money or could take second and get a lot of money. Not many. If I won 40k in a poker tournament, Id be kissing every hairy motherfucker at that table. Id even kiss "the bitch".
Chris

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you're missing the point. he was not out of the tourney. he was still in the tourney when he said the 'how can you be mad when you won $40,000?' comment. he's mad because it hurt his chances of winning. if you're sitting at a final table and your goal isn't to do as well as you can possibly do (winning) then competition is not for you. losing is not ok to competitive people. at the end of the day you can look back and be happy with what you accomplished. but let's not pretend that you won, when in fact you lost.

i don't see how the your playing for only the bracelet analogy is applicable at all. if first place weren't better than 2nd place then it wouldn't be first place.

drewjustdrew

08-12-2004, 10:09 AM

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He doesn't have the game to know that he's raising or folding here.

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This seems too cut and dry. If I jump into McManus' scary, tool head for a second, my thought process might go something like this:

"I might have the best hand. He has been playing garbage and autobetting every hand he is in. If I raise, he will call or reraise no matter what since I haven't seen him fold tonight once he is in, even with garbage. I have to call a reraise since he does that with nothing as well. That is two more bets at risk on somewhat of a gamble. If I fold now, I may be folding a winner, and it is just one more bet. Therefore, I call."

I'm sure it was a very player specific call. Powers overplay of the middle pair vs. set hand is evidence of this rationalization. He was raising and betting with clearly a mediocre to inferior hand. Called a raise on the turn when he was obviously beat and a river bet with the same inferior hand.

Rushmore

08-12-2004, 11:06 AM

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This seems too cut and dry. If I jump into McManus' scary, tool head for a second, my thought process might go something like this:

"I might have the best hand. He has been playing garbage and autobetting every hand he is in. If I raise, he will call or reraise no matter what since I haven't seen him fold tonight once he is in, even with garbage. I have to call a reraise since he does that with nothing as well. That is two more bets at risk on somewhat of a gamble. If I fold now, I may be folding a winner, and it is just one more bet. Therefore, I call."

I'm sure it was a very player specific call. Powers overplay of the middle pair vs. set hand is evidence of this rationalization. He was raising and betting with clearly a mediocre to inferior hand. Called a raise on the turn when he was obviously beat and a river bet with the same inferior hand.

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Obviously, we didn't see all of the hands. But if this Ellix "character" is bonkers enough to CALL a raise or make a reraise here, I don't know--it's a world gone mad.

Your point is fair enough, if it's remotely possible that the process could be as you described.

RowdyZ

08-12-2004, 11:15 AM

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This seems too cut and dry. If I jump into McManus' scary, tool head for a second, my thought process might go something like this:

"I might have the best hand. He has been playing garbage and autobetting every hand he is in. If I raise, he will call or reraise no matter what since I haven't seen him fold tonight once he is in, even with garbage. I have to call a reraise since he does that with nothing as well. That is two more bets at risk on somewhat of a gamble. If I fold now, I may be folding a winner, and it is just one more bet. Therefore, I call."

I'm sure it was a very player specific call. Powers overplay of the middle pair vs. set hand is evidence of this rationalization. He was raising and betting with clearly a mediocre to inferior hand. Called a raise on the turn when he was obviously beat and a river bet with the same inferior hand.

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Obviously, we didn't see all of the hands. But if this Ellix "character" is bonkers enough to CALL a raise or make a reraise here, I don't know--it's a world gone mad.

Your point is fair enough, if it's remotely possible that the process could be as you described.

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It is more then remotely possible. I would say the chances of him calling at the least and maybe even reraising were much greater then him folding based on his earlier play. I don't think it is possible to bet him out of pot in LIMIT holdem.

Rushmore

08-12-2004, 11:44 AM

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More than any other, this episode of the 2004 World Series of Poker did a good job of introducing the casual viewer to the various types of degenerates and scumbags you'll find playing poker.

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You managed to achieve an 85% "End Of Thread" post.

If you had included the verbiage "...and pious, self-important tools..." you would have won The Cup.

I'm really learning to love the term tool.

fnurt

08-12-2004, 12:20 PM

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Borrowed from the Andy Glazer report.

Because Powers’ game was so unusual and unpredictable, he was throwing off everyone else; standards were changing, and players were making calls and raises with hands they would never normally have considered even playing, much less attacking with. Say what you will about how many floors his mind’s personal elevator stops at, Ellix Powers approach threw some of the world’s finest off balance, and he played fearlessly.

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The full Andy Glazer report on this event is a fantastic read. You can find it in the archives at www.finaltablepoker.com (http://www.finaltablepoker.com)

Smasharoo

08-12-2004, 05:20 PM

I thought Rick James was dead!

Triumph36

08-12-2004, 05:37 PM

Sheesh. Who knew everyone had such contempt for McManus.

His comment was out of line, but everyone citing EV and 'playing against a maniac is +EV' is missing the point. McManus doesn't seem to be playing for +EV, he's not a professional. He's playing for the bracelet and for the experience of playing with professional poker players.

The pros were having a good time with Ellix, but the pros sit at a poker table 50 hours a week. For a guy like McManus who probably only gets a shot to play with the best once a year, I'd be a little pissed off too. It'd be like sitting next to an abusive drunk who harangues the dealer on your one casino trip for the year; yeah, you might get some of his chips, but could you say you enjoyed it?

And his book was self-indulgent but very well-written.