I am about 90% the way through SSH

[magic7s]

I am about 90% the way through SSH and I don't remember seeing a section on when to fold. I think this is one of my biggest problems is chasing hands to the end. Example would be I get two big cards, raise pre-flop, flop comes with junk, I have 2 over cards, everyone checks to me, I bet, a few call. Turn comes blank, everyone checks to me, I bet, same people call. River comes, no help, everyone checks I bet. Some times I get raised (but not often). Some one calls and beats my high card with a pair (sometime top pair).

Do I assume that every situation not listed in the book is a folding situation?
Based on results, I should be folding this (sooner if possible). Some times I try to check raise to bluff but that back fires most of the time (they either check through, or re-raise).

[Sent]

I would almost never check-raise bluff unless you have a very good read on your opponent. Knowing when yo fold is basically knowing what you are drawing to, can you win with your draws, what your opponent(s) may have, and pot size. I'm sure there are more factors than these.

Veterans?

-Sent

[Billman]

Maybe all of the people on this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=908647&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post910806908647) should come over and read your post. The check-raise bluff is exactly the topic up for debate.

[ncboiler]

Why would you bet the river with only high card in a multiway pot? That seems very -EV.

[SnakeRat]

Read the SSH section on playing overcards.
In the example you gave take a free card on the turn and a free showdown on the river.


Dont bluff check-raise at micro-limits.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]

Do I assume that every situation not listed in the book is a folding situation?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand the question. SSH tries to explain the sorts of things you need to think about in order to make the decision to check/bet/raise/fold. It's not so much about it listing 'situations', but providing examples to illustrate concepts. In other words, it tries to explain the basis for judging situations to be +or- EV.

In your example, you talk about pushing overcards. Which overcards? What is the flop like? What kinds of opponents are you dealing with? How big is the pot? These things are all obviously important in the decision making process. SSH focuses on teaching you how to integrate all these different pieces of information into a decision by explaining the impact that each of them has on how you evaluate the relative strength of your hand.

I'm sorry if this is not helpful. It just seemed like you were looking to find the answers themselves rather than ways you go about figuring them out... in which case reading SSH will likely prove to be frustrating in many ways.

You need to think hard about how to apply each concept to the sorts of situations you find yourself in. For example, in the 'Free Card' section you can find several things to think about when deciding whether to try this play. What you won't find is a list of specific examples that comprehensively cover the full range of profitable applications.

The section on how to approach river play talks about when to bet/raise, check, and fold. It also references the section of river play in TOP for additional information. So, in your example... what will betting do to make this situation more profitable than checking? If you can't come up with a good answer, then don't put your money in. Likewise if it was a question of whether to call or fold, evaluate the situation as best you can and try to estimate the chance that calling will be the most profitable play, being sure to factor in the pot size, the general quality of your opponents, and how everyone has played the hand to this point.

This forum can help you with the specifics. Post hands you're not sure about to get feedback. It'll help you figure out whether you're applying the concepts properly. Most of us are working through the same sorts of questions that you have.

[rr2000]

I used to think SSH will kill my win-rate. Now I want more such books coming out.

[Nottom]

I must have missed the section on blindly flailing away with overcards and making hopeless river check-raise bluffs.

[stir]

VERY....funny.....post

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
I must have missed the section on blindly flailing away with overcards and making hopeless river check-raise bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's in the 2nd printing.

Seriously though, unless you're heads up, betting the turn again when you still haven't hit your overcards is probably a -EV move long term against multiple opponents.

I think SSH reasons that betting the flop with overcards is good because:
- You may have the best hand at that moment.
- You may force out someone with Ax or Kx who might have bottom pair, therefore cleaning up your outs.
- If you have position you are effectively buying a free card most likely if a blank falls on the turn, meaning you're getting to see the turn and river for the cost of 1/2 BB.

What's important though is the texture of the flop itself, and what your opponents may be calling with.

For example, if I raise PF with AQo, and the flop comes 842r, I will bet the flop. Say I have 4 callers, the turn is something like a 6, and it's checked to me again. On Stars, I will sometimes bet again, even against 4 opponents because at the $1/$2 level that will sometimes pick up the pot. Especially since they could also be on overcards like JTs or Q9.

But say in the same situation the flop is T96r instead. Any semi-coordinated flop like that, and especially coordinated ones with straight and flush draws, betting the turn when a blank falls doesn't do any good, as multiple flop callers are more likely to have caught a piece of the flop, and your outs are less likely to be clean.

I'm in the process of reading SSH again. It preaches aggression, yes, but it's controlled aggression, and it's easy to get carried away with it.

[Victor]

ummm....you must have missed the section on playing overcards.

[cartoonsoldier]

I think one of the situations Ed forgot to cover is when you have 22 and the flop is 22x

[Goon2]

The Overcards section, if I recall correctly, states each of your overcards are worth 1.5 outs. For ex., if you have AK, each "out" is worth .5 each. Hence, your overcard outs are typically 3 with two overcards. You'll need a monster pot to even consider continuing.

Other things must be considered. Is the board paired? Could someone be drawing to 8 outs (Flush, Straight)? Where are the bets coming from? Will a bet cause your opponents to fold? You have to think about all this stuff to make that decision.

This is not a science, but you have to be asking the right questions to determine if your play is +EV or -EV.

[DMBFan23]

Ed shouldn't have to cover something so elementary. the answer is clearly to check and call. duh. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif