So am I applying this principle correctly?

[Bill Smith]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Was this a good place to c/r, and why or why not? I did knock one person out, but I'm out of position and we all know how people love to play their Ax on Party.

EDIT: I should mention that MP3 was a pretty bad player.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
(4 SB) J, 7, A (4 players)


[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ed would recommend you fold on the flop. Small pot, a bettor and caller on the flop, unless you are pretty sure you still have the best hand you should fold.

[joker122]

Which principle are you reffering to?

Sorry, I don't have my copy of SSH if that's where it's from.

[PseudoPserious]

I like it better if the button bets instead of MP.

With the MP betting and button calling, I'd say fold because the pot is tiny.

PP

[lu_hawk]

Fold the flop. If it was checked to the button and he bet then this becomes a much better play, but with MP3 betting and the button calling you need to fold. And you aren't knocking many people out, usually you will only be reducing it from 4 to 3, and you are only forcing the BB to call two cold and he would probably be folding anyway.

[Louie Landale]

On the plus side MP3 didn't raise PF suggesting he has no Ace; and button didn't raise ON the flop suggesting he has no ace. On the minus side; typical loose passive folks don't bet unless they DO have an Ace. Those that do typically check on the turn.

So calling the flop figuring to fold the turn is a very reasonable option, but you gotta know your player.

Your play makes great sense against reasonably agressive folks; who would probably have raised had they an Ace in their hand AND don't need top pair to bet out on the flop. In fact, calling, hehehe, figuring to check-raise the turn is a very reasonable option against them.

Raising on the flop "to find out where you are at" is almost always worthless. Did they call? Now what? Do you "know where you are at? What if he 3-bets? Might he not have a flush draw? Do it ONLY if you are confident, very confident, they will play predictably from that point on.

You gotta know your player.

- Louie

[jmark]

Why did you checkraise exactly? You're only worried about 1 overcard coming later on. You're not going to get 2 spades, 89, 9T, Ax, etc etc to fold. I suppose it could save you from runner runner spade or straight...

If you have a read that makes you think you have the best hand, then that's a different story. MP3 was a bad player, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an ace, and what about button calling?

[ErrantNight]

what others have said... plus, it's really important if you're isolating to get headsup on a semi-bluff and are afraid you might be behind that you feel there's at least a REASONABLE chance your opponent might release a better hand on later rounds if he fails to improve when you likewise don't...

if you have that read in this case then it makes your play better... certainly better than calling... but here a fold is probably better for the reasons others have already outlined

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
On the plus side MP3 didn't raise PF suggesting he has no Ace

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that this is a Party 2/4 game? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Bill Smith]

Thanks for the help. I'm trying to understand this concept as posted in the forum being that I still don't have my copy of SSH. I won't trouble people to explain this in greater detail.

Turn: 11 of red balloons
Hero bets, BB folds, MP3 calls.

River: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Should I bet the river? I can't imagine he calls if he missed his flush or straight draw, and I didn't want to feed the passive ace or something like KT another BB if it could be avoided.

MP3 shows T9o and MHIG. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
On the plus side MP3 didn't raise PF suggesting he has no Ace; and button didn't raise ON the flop suggesting he has no ace. On the minus side; typical loose passive folks don't bet unless they DO have an Ace. Those that do typically check on the turn.


- Louie

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think these things mean what you think they mean.

Regarding the hand, I think the fold advice is right. A coordinated board, with an A, in a low stakes game, you are out of position, the pot is small....

Another thing to think about, which I have started thinking about lately. If your raise is +EV, it's pretty small, if it's -EV, it's probably bigger....better off waiting for a better had/situation.

[kenewbie]

Doesnt he have implied odds to to see the turn here? All his outs are probably good as none of them are spades.

I would have seen the turn, but since this is higher limit than I normally play I reserve the right to be painfully wrong.

k

[Louie Landale]

Calling figuring to fold the turn is a realist option unless the opponents are real aggressive. But if they are that aggressive calling figuring to keep calling is a realistic option. Anyway...

"If your raise is +EV, it's pretty small, if it's -EV, it's probably bigger...." Good point.

"...better off waiting for a better had/situation" Terrible point. The main consern is whether this is an overall good situation or not. We disagree but that doesn't matter here. Secondary would be how playing or folding this hand will effect future plays (not very much). Of no consern is whether there are a reasonable number of better situtations coming along in a reasonable amount of time, as you suggest. Those situations are coming regardless of what you do with THIS situation.

This is NOT the same as being in a gun fight with only 6 bullets; where you WILL often not take a shot to preserve your ammo. That analogy comes up in tournaments but not ring games.

- Louie

[SomethingClever]

With just 2 limpers... does anyone fold the SB here?