Top Set on the Flop When its the Nuts

[Young Gun]

The play of the top set on the flop has plagued me the past few sessions. I've dumped $30 at 10-25 on stars. relatively small but still concerning. now my question is when you flop the top set is it correct to ram and jam and get in as much as possible or wait for the board to possibly pair where you know youy have a likely winner to jam it.

P.S. I realize the sistuation maybe different depending how many outs I beleive my opponents may have but what play is correct if say the flop is 2 of one suit and you put your opponenet on 4 to a flush.

[Acesover8s]

It depends on a number of factors. Three primary factors are:

1) The texture of the board. Is it K27 rainbow or or KJ8 with a flushdraw?

2) Is it heads up or multi-way?

Note that the combination of the first two factors can lead to different decisions. On the first board you may be more willing to slowplay in a multi-way pot since there are no scare cards (although you would like to build the pot enough to get all in on the turn if necessary).

On the second board I am more likely to ram and jam if I think I can keep players in rather than remove them.

The third factor, which I guess ties in here, is if heads up can you be certain your opponenent is drawing? Or, rather, does he think he is ahead. There is nothing worse than flopping top set against middle set, slowplaying the flop and ending up checking it down when scary cards hit.

Against most draws you will be a favorite and you lose very little (in terms of equity) those times when you are not, by getting it all in early.

If, however, you can be certain your opponent is drawing and the stacks are large it will pay to wait for a safe turn card to get it in. But this is something you will rarely know, so when in doubt, push it in.

[Graham]

So, a lot of the time I know I might get to see 4 board cards with my draws when I'm playing against you..? That's generous of you - especially those times the board pairs and I then duck (along with all my chips).

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
So, a lot of the time I know I might get to see 4 board cards with my draws when I'm playing against you..? That's generous of you - especially those times the board pairs and I then duck (along with all my chips).

[/ QUOTE ]


Good job reading and responding to one sentance of my post when every other statement was basically bet, bet, bet.

And yes, if I somehow knew my opponent had a huge draw that was a favorite over my nut holding I would be more than happy to give him a free card before committing any money into the pot. You are NOT charging your opponent to draw when he has positive equity and you do not.

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
You are NOT charging your opponent to draw when he has positive equity and you do not.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not strictly true. If your opponent is a dog for one card, and could not handle a bet on the turn, then you ARE charging him to draw, even if he has more equity "all in" than you.

This comes up a lot in pot-limit hold'em, with draws such as a flush draw and two overcards, which is theoretically a favorite against top pair, all-in. However, with deep stacks and both hands face up, he would have to fold to a pot-sized bet.

[Acesover8s]

I concede, I did not think out my retort well enough.

However, my initial point remains true, that my original post advocated betting and raising with top set in nearly every circumstance.

[Graham]

[ QUOTE ]
Good job reading and responding to one sentance of my post when every other statement was basically bet, bet, bet.

And yes, if I somehow knew my opponent had a huge draw that was a favorite over my nut holding I would be more than happy to give him a free card before committing any money into the pot. You are NOT charging your opponent to draw when he has positive equity and you do not.

[/ QUOTE ]


You're right. I was only responding to the part I disagreed w. I'll retract the "lot of the time" /images/graemlins/blush.gif

The more I think about it, the more I like always playing top set hard when its the current nuts. Unless the stacks are such that a flop bet leaves insufficient to make a good bet on the turn, I'll go hard on the flop with it.

[JasonP530]

Pot Limit Omaha is a very complicated game. If you could get all your money in the middle on the flop, it would be correct to do so most of the time. However, that is not usually the case, so it is essential that you vary your play. If you always raise the flop with a set, players will call you and take a look at the turn. If they hit, you will be a big underdog, and if the board pairs you will win very little. If the money is very deep, good players will usually be able to outplay you in large pots, when many scare cards can come. It is essential that you not do the same thing all the time. Youre going to have to suck it up and bet sometimes when a scare card comes on the turn, or youre going to be facing a lot of pot sized bets on the end, which will give you lots of headaches.

[donkeyradish]

If you always raise the flop with a set, players will call you and take a look at the turn.

I don't follow... if you make a pot sized raise, isn't that exactly what you DO want them to do?

[bunky9590]

Depends on whether you have top set with some sort of defence

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
If you always raise the flop with a set, players will call you and take a look at the turn.

I don't follow... if you make a pot sized raise, isn't that exactly what you DO want them to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. Particularly if there is more money left, and the board is coordinated enough and your opponent is playful enough.

Let's set up a scenario where there is $100 in the pot preflop. Each of us has $400 left in our stacks. You are holding KK22. The flop is KT8 with 2 hearts. I know that you are tight enough player to only bet the pot with top set. I am holding 2AAhQh. I have 11 outs to beat you, but I can represent a straight with any 7, 9, or Q as well giving me an additional 9 outs against your hand. Will you call if I move in on the turn if one of these cards hits? Maybe. Will you be happy about it? What if there's another 1200$ behind? What if you don't fill on the turn? Wish I had folded?

[donkeyradish]

OK

Thats why I don't play PL Omaha, I'd probably be stuck to know where I am half the time