A Couple of Drawing Hands

[josh1122]

Here are a couple of similar drawing hands which I played almost identical to one another. But did I play them correctly? (Have not read SSHE (it's being shipped /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) but I think it addresses hands like these?) Table is entirely passive in both hands.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (21.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 25.50 BB

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (27.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 30.50 BB

I'm not sure about both hands. Were my raises preflop correct? Were my calls on the flop with runner-runner draws correct in such big pots? When I made the OESD and flush draws should I be raising in these spots (I really don't think the cap was good in hand 2) or should those raises only be with draws to the nuts?

[zuluking]

I would not have raised pre-flop with those hands.

[cold_cash]

I'm not a fan of either pre-flop raise, but I guess they're not earth-shattering mistakes.

Hand 1 - the pot is big, and I guess you have enough to take one off, but it's close. Swelling the pot so YOU have odds to chase a long-shot draw isn't usually a good idea.

Hand 2 - the flop call is easier, but I don't like the turn cap at all. There's a good chance you're only drawing at half the pot, and the flush draw de-values 2 of your outs.

I would have limped in with both of these hands, and most likely folded both flops. (Although the flop on hand 2 MIGHT be a bet or call.)

[josh1122]

Ummm, I know I've read somewhere to raise on the button, in the SB, and in the BB with a drawing hand (Suited aces, kings, and connectors) with so many callers before you in order to build a big pot so you can draw. Am I wrong about this?

[cjromero]

Hand 1

I limp with K9s. With that many limpers, top pair won't likely hold up. You are trying to flop 2 pair or a strong draw. In SSH, Ed recommends that you raise with KTs and better on the button.

On the flop, the call with the backdoor flush draw isn't horrible, especially given the size of the pot, but you need to think of what cards really help you on the turn and how much they help you. With all those callers, you are clearly behind on the flop, and some of your outs are certainly counterfeited and should be discounted.

I don't like the turn raise still needing another heart to make your hand, but I'm not sure I am right. Given all those players, it may be best to build the pot higher, although even if another heart comes on the river, you will still get more bets because most people aren't going to put you on runner, runner hearts. With only one card to come and you needing a heart to make the next to the nuts, I would call and save a big bet here.

On the river, the pot is giving you 23.5 to 1 to call. I would probably go ahead and call, but there is almost no way that second pair/mediocre kicker is good.

Hand 2

Don't raise with A7s in the small blind. Just limp along. You are playing it to hit two pair or a flush draw on the flop. I would fold on the flop.

[bwana devil]

Hand One:

preflop: just call. K9s is not nearly strong enough to raise w/. even in late position.

flop: fold if you had only called the flop. But with the raise preflop, the pot is too big to fold now. With the flop you have a backdoor flush draw (1 1/2 outs)and backdoor straight draw (1 1/2 outs). and you might consider the K 1/2 an out although w/ 8 people to the flop, you can pretty much guarantee there's an A out there.

Turn: call. You got a nice heart so you may be able to pull the flush after all.

One could argue for the raise since there are many people (5) to the river but you lost SB w/ the raise so you therefore lost your odds. (only getting 4 to 1 odds)

River: call is good. you got to know a pair of K isn’t going to hold up, but the pot is too big not to find out.

bwana

[ChromePony]

This are both drawing starting hands, the kind you want to see a cheap flop with so I would not have raised pf.

On the first hand you are looking at two backdoor draws which I believe are good for about 1-1.5 outs each (someone correct me here), so youre looking at 3 outs, unless you think your kings are good but I'd say thats unlikely with this many people in the pot and the ace on board. I would fold this on the flop, with 3 outs you're about 7:1 to hit by the river so to justify a call you'd need 7 callers the whole way, although impled odds make up for this a little. Once you hit the heart on the turn you are about 4:1 to make the flush on the river, so the raise is justified if you think you can get 4 people to stay in with you (which you did), but I think that may have been a bit fortunate and I would just call. On the river you have no choice but to call for only 1 BB, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't an ace out there.

Hand 2 is similar except this time your ace outs may be good as well, I generally dont like to chase backdoor draws, a call on the flop could be OK with this many people in the pot. On the turn you're looking at a possible 11 outs (4 9s 4 4s 3 aces) which gives pot odds of about 3.2:1 on the river. Cap is very aggressive and you ended up with only 3 callers, but again implied odds may make up for the difference here.

In both cases I would have limped and probably folded on the flop, but thats me. Most important is to know and understand these pot odds so you realize what youre getting into and what the chances are that you'll make it out alive /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ErrantNight]

yes, if you think that it's an automatic raise... the reason to make these raises is to get people to stick around later if you hit your draw by giving people the odds to call you down and pay you out... so frequently, if not always, on micro limits (particularly at party) this is not a wise bet because people will stay around anyway... the reason to make this bet would be largely for deception, so it should be done infrequently... both these hands are fine to see the flop with, but not raise

you don't really pick up a draw until the turn with either hand, and while I didn't spend a lot of time with these I could see folding on the flop to be the right play, easily

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I know I've read somewhere to raise on the button, in the SB, and in the BB with a drawing hand (Suited aces, kings, and connectors) with so many callers before you in order to build a big pot so you can draw. Am I wrong about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

as someone else mentioned, it's the drawing hands that you don't want to raise. you want to see the flop cheaply.

you're hoping to sneak a cheap peak at the flop and if it helps your hand, then come out firing and making 7 other people pay you off.

it's strong hands, such as KK that you want to come out raising preflop to punish people working on long shots.

can you look at why it would be right to raise w/ KK on the button but not K9s? they play completely differntly.

[josh1122]

Thanks for the help everyone. For what its worth, in hand 1 UTG+2 had 88, MP3 had AJ, and BB had AT. In hand 2 MP1 had Ac3c, CO had 55, and UTG had 86s. I really misplayed these hands on the false belief that it is ok to raise with drawing hands from late position. I know better now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif And knowing that backdoor draws can be counted as 1.5 outs really helps. Thanks again.

[cold_cash]

Raising with a drawing hand before the flop isn't the end of the world, but like someone else said it's not really necessary in these games.

Your opponents are going to chase with weak draws regardless of the size of the pot, so you don't really need to make it bigger in order to increase their incentive to do so.

If you consistently raise with these kinds of hands it will increase your variance and might become a leak. With speculative hands like these it's usually best to play against a large number of opponents for a single bet.

If your starting hands were a little stronger, a pre-flop raise becomes more correct, obviously.

For instance, in Hand 1 if you had A9s instead of K9s on the Button, a raise against 7 opponents would be better because not only does it play well in a family pot, but you also have a much better chance of having the best hand while in the best position. With K9s your chances of having the best hand are much lower, so you're raising with only the hope of flopping a huge draw, and that isn't going to happen very often.

[chief444]

I don't mind the pf raise in hand 1 at all.

I don't care for the pf raise in hand 2 much.

Position is very important with these types of hands.

I doubt if you have a 1 in 25 or so chance to win in hand one but I'd probably call anyway.

[chief444]

Being "drawing hands" has nothing to do with it. K9s may be borderline but as I said I don't mind this pf raise at all. KTs, KJs, JTs, QTs, QJs, and some better players may argue more are a definite raise on the button with many loose and poor limpers. It's all about pot equity, not whether it is a drawing hand or high pocket pair.

[DeathDonkey]

Preflop: Hand 1 is ok but marginal, hand 2 is a very bad raise preflop. You won't hit your draws enough to make this a good play with the worst position at the table.

Postflop: I won't repeat the advice the others have given, except to say your play is between LAGgy and maniacal - please sit at my table /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[Nottom]

Hand 1: Flop call is very thin, I'm not sure if its right or not, but its probably very close.

Raising the turn is just a waste of a bet. You have no chance of winnign the pot right away and need to improve to win. I fold the river as well.

Hand 2: I don't like the preflop raise. On the turn you are again raising for no reason other than to spew chips.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm, I know I've read somewhere to raise on the button, in the SB, and in the BB with a drawing hand (Suited aces, kings, and connectors) with so many callers before you in order to build a big pot so you can draw. Am I wrong about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You build a big pot so that other players are stuck in the big pot when you flop a nice draw, not so that you can draw to longshot hands. You seem to be trapping yourself more than your opponents in these hands.

[bwana devil]

How do you make a distinction between strength of the hole cards and pot equity? With pot equity you’re trying to determine how much you’ll win based on how likely it is that you’ll win the pot. You determine how likely you are to win the pot by the strength of your hand.

How do you see these as unrelated?

[chief444]

They aren't necessarily unrelated. I just don't like generally stating that "drawing hands" shouldn't be raised pf because this is not accurate.

[josh1122]

Well I feel a little humiliated by my horrible play but I feel I need to say a few things in my own defense.

1. Preflop-I would never normally consider raising with these hands in any other circumstances. I just thought I knew what I was doing in these situations but I didn't and now I know better. I know very well to raise with big hands and keep on ram-jammin with them until someone convinces you to stop but I just thought I was doing the right thing here and you all have shown me that I was wrong.

2. I thought I was getting good odds considering the size of the pot and the number of people still in it to continue on my backdoor draws. I know now that I was wrong here, too and now I know how to correct this in the future.

3. I was a little too aggressive postflop /images/graemlins/crazy.gif, but that can only be attributed to a little tilt and the fact that, as someone else, said I had locked myself into the hands. And I am still learning when to check my aggression and when to go all out.

I appreciate all the help everyone is giving and I know I really messed up in these hands but I think posting almost the same thing 15+ times is just driving home the nail a little too hard. No hard feelings though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sent]

Np Josh we are all here to learn

-Sent

[skierdude1000]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I feel a little humiliated by my horrible play but I feel I need to say a few things in my own defense.

1. Preflop-I would never normally consider raising with these hands in any other circumstances. I just thought I knew what I was doing in these situations but I didn't and now I know better. I know very well to raise with big hands and keep on ram-jammin with them until someone convinces you to stop but I just thought I was doing the right thing here and you all have shown me that I was wrong.

2. I thought I was getting good odds considering the size of the pot and the number of people still in it to continue on my backdoor draws. I know now that I was wrong here, too and now I know how to correct this in the future.

3. I was a little too aggressive postflop /images/graemlins/crazy.gif, but that can only be attributed to a little tilt and the fact that, as someone else, said I had locked myself into the hands. And I am still learning when to check my aggression and when to go all out.

I appreciate all the help everyone is giving and I know I really messed up in these hands but I think posting almost the same thing 15+ times is just driving home the nail a little too hard. No hard feelings though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though your play was wrong, be proud that you recognize your mistakes now and that you had some kind of thought put into making your decisions. Be positive and stay happy!