Schneids
08-10-2004, 06:14 AM
I'd love to hear constructive criticism or positive feedback on the following. I don't know where I'm going but maybe I'll get somewhere:
1) You cannot test someone's hand strength on the flop in a Party game, ever, in a HU pot by raising their bet. This raise accomplishes nothing unless you already have a strong grasp on their playing tendencies; and even with this you must know their tendencies when HU.
Otherwise, it's worthless. Being reraised might mean nothing. It might mean the nuts. If someone calls the only thing you know is that they called. If they 3-bet the only thing you know is they 3-bet. The simple fact is the vast majority of Party players play so bad and so unreadable that most of these raises do not accomplish anything in terms of helping to read an opponent's hand, and you're rarely going to be comfortable enough to act on it even when you're given a read you might be beat.
2) In multiway pots more often than not you raise on the flop not to find out information from your primary opponent's hand (ie the preflop aggressor), but to find out stuff about the other involved peoples' hands.
Here is an example hand where I think it's correct to raise on the flop "for information":
You raise UTG with TT. Button cold calls. BB 3-bets. You and button call. Flop JJ3r; BB bets, you raise, button cold calls, BB 3-bets. Ok. Information granted. Get outta the pot now. You fold, and get to see BB's AA and button's QJ at showdown. It's hardly shocking that button had trips. And BB's 3-bet confirms you're in hot water against him too.
Summary: Just about the only kinds of flops where you may be able to raise "for information" are very uncoordinated, draw unfriendly flops. Otherwise, forget about it.
3) Against the right opponents calling is often times more telling of their strength; especially ones that are expecting aggressiveness out of you.
Here is a sample hand where I think calling accomplishes more than check-raising. This occurred in a live 10-handed game, but for all purposes I think it's applicable on Party too:
4 limpers, you complete in SB with 55. Flop 774. You check (ok I agree betting out has some merits but lets say you checked which is equally solid IMO), BB bets, amazingly all fold around to you. BB is a solid playing regular in your game and knows you to be the same. If you check raise you know BB will 3-bet about the right amount (by game theory) with both a seven or a 4, and likewise will call about the right amount with both. So raising accomplishes nothing in terms of "testing the waters." Call and check the turn. The turn comes an unscary nine. You check, BB checks. Fantastic. It now looks like we've scared the crap outta BB with our smooth call, we can practically dark bet the river now. River brings another blank and you bet and get called. YHIG. By raising on the flop you're making the pot larger and giving the man with position more incentive to again try to make a move for the pot. And against a solid player who does this the right amount of the time, that's scary since it's hard to fold yet he has the edge with his position and he'll end up taking more from you than you will from him both by inducing incorrect folds or by only extracting the max when he has you beat.
One of the best ways to fight an opponent expecting aggression from you is with passivity.
4)When a lot of people start playing short handed, they have a lot of misplaced aggression and questions about "how hard should I be playing this hand? How much semi-bluffing should I be doing? What's the right amount of bla-bla..."
Here's a hint: flop play should rarely ever, by itself, be used to gauge your hand. Flop play is about seeing the river cheaply if you have position and that's your goal. Flop play is about pumping draws when the pots are multiway and you are earning money with the action. Flop play is about setting yourself up for the turn and river, as a way to begin the hand reading process on your opponent (say there was a lot of flop action and someone who was meekly calling on the flop comes to life on a turn blank. This ALWAYS means you're in trouble. Or the infamous bet into the raiser who raises, call, then check raise the raiser on the turn...). Flop play is about getting people to start playing back at you with worse hands, so you can then charge them on both the flop and turn with your strong hands. This is the largeset key IMO. You want your strongest hands to get you action on both the flop AND later streets, since this is far more profitable than playing it slowly on the flop just so you can get 2 bets on the turn. Flop play is about being aggressive to the point that people will get suspicious when you smooth call the flop and raise on the turn (which should buy you a few victories in smaller pots with very vulnerable hands which might be losing, but contain scary boards. See the 22 hand here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=788194&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=lyrical&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=788194&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4677&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post788194) for details with further assessment halfway down the thread between me and Stripsqueez). These are all the functions of flop play.
5) All this said I know it sounds like a contradiction. I'm saying plenty about passivity yet I'm claiming the key to good flop play is being able to get excessive action on the street without it killing your action on the later more expensive streets. I know I do not hold all the answers to being a success at this, but I do believe it starts with recognizing when and where you can afford unrelenting aggression. Most of the time it is in heads up pots with position. You are probably in the pot because you have a decent hand. So push it hard against those blind defenders who play bad. Maybe they'll fold and you'll win the pot. Maybe they won't, but hey you tried and made an investment. This is the start of your power. From here it extends to creating an overall aura -- a powerful image that people do not forget. You don't have to be hyper-aggressive in every multiway pot; just often enough so nobody forgets it. You actually play very sane and only bet/raise with the goods in the multiway pots. People however remember those HU encounters and you going off, so, you create your big action in the biggest hands and the most people to pay you. The rest is just treading water. The table is now in your control. It is all one gigantic floor plan for crafting a session.
1) You cannot test someone's hand strength on the flop in a Party game, ever, in a HU pot by raising their bet. This raise accomplishes nothing unless you already have a strong grasp on their playing tendencies; and even with this you must know their tendencies when HU.
Otherwise, it's worthless. Being reraised might mean nothing. It might mean the nuts. If someone calls the only thing you know is that they called. If they 3-bet the only thing you know is they 3-bet. The simple fact is the vast majority of Party players play so bad and so unreadable that most of these raises do not accomplish anything in terms of helping to read an opponent's hand, and you're rarely going to be comfortable enough to act on it even when you're given a read you might be beat.
2) In multiway pots more often than not you raise on the flop not to find out information from your primary opponent's hand (ie the preflop aggressor), but to find out stuff about the other involved peoples' hands.
Here is an example hand where I think it's correct to raise on the flop "for information":
You raise UTG with TT. Button cold calls. BB 3-bets. You and button call. Flop JJ3r; BB bets, you raise, button cold calls, BB 3-bets. Ok. Information granted. Get outta the pot now. You fold, and get to see BB's AA and button's QJ at showdown. It's hardly shocking that button had trips. And BB's 3-bet confirms you're in hot water against him too.
Summary: Just about the only kinds of flops where you may be able to raise "for information" are very uncoordinated, draw unfriendly flops. Otherwise, forget about it.
3) Against the right opponents calling is often times more telling of their strength; especially ones that are expecting aggressiveness out of you.
Here is a sample hand where I think calling accomplishes more than check-raising. This occurred in a live 10-handed game, but for all purposes I think it's applicable on Party too:
4 limpers, you complete in SB with 55. Flop 774. You check (ok I agree betting out has some merits but lets say you checked which is equally solid IMO), BB bets, amazingly all fold around to you. BB is a solid playing regular in your game and knows you to be the same. If you check raise you know BB will 3-bet about the right amount (by game theory) with both a seven or a 4, and likewise will call about the right amount with both. So raising accomplishes nothing in terms of "testing the waters." Call and check the turn. The turn comes an unscary nine. You check, BB checks. Fantastic. It now looks like we've scared the crap outta BB with our smooth call, we can practically dark bet the river now. River brings another blank and you bet and get called. YHIG. By raising on the flop you're making the pot larger and giving the man with position more incentive to again try to make a move for the pot. And against a solid player who does this the right amount of the time, that's scary since it's hard to fold yet he has the edge with his position and he'll end up taking more from you than you will from him both by inducing incorrect folds or by only extracting the max when he has you beat.
One of the best ways to fight an opponent expecting aggression from you is with passivity.
4)When a lot of people start playing short handed, they have a lot of misplaced aggression and questions about "how hard should I be playing this hand? How much semi-bluffing should I be doing? What's the right amount of bla-bla..."
Here's a hint: flop play should rarely ever, by itself, be used to gauge your hand. Flop play is about seeing the river cheaply if you have position and that's your goal. Flop play is about pumping draws when the pots are multiway and you are earning money with the action. Flop play is about setting yourself up for the turn and river, as a way to begin the hand reading process on your opponent (say there was a lot of flop action and someone who was meekly calling on the flop comes to life on a turn blank. This ALWAYS means you're in trouble. Or the infamous bet into the raiser who raises, call, then check raise the raiser on the turn...). Flop play is about getting people to start playing back at you with worse hands, so you can then charge them on both the flop and turn with your strong hands. This is the largeset key IMO. You want your strongest hands to get you action on both the flop AND later streets, since this is far more profitable than playing it slowly on the flop just so you can get 2 bets on the turn. Flop play is about being aggressive to the point that people will get suspicious when you smooth call the flop and raise on the turn (which should buy you a few victories in smaller pots with very vulnerable hands which might be losing, but contain scary boards. See the 22 hand here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=788194&Foru m=All_Forums&Words=lyrical&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=788194&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=4677&dat erange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertyp e=&bodyprev=#Post788194) for details with further assessment halfway down the thread between me and Stripsqueez). These are all the functions of flop play.
5) All this said I know it sounds like a contradiction. I'm saying plenty about passivity yet I'm claiming the key to good flop play is being able to get excessive action on the street without it killing your action on the later more expensive streets. I know I do not hold all the answers to being a success at this, but I do believe it starts with recognizing when and where you can afford unrelenting aggression. Most of the time it is in heads up pots with position. You are probably in the pot because you have a decent hand. So push it hard against those blind defenders who play bad. Maybe they'll fold and you'll win the pot. Maybe they won't, but hey you tried and made an investment. This is the start of your power. From here it extends to creating an overall aura -- a powerful image that people do not forget. You don't have to be hyper-aggressive in every multiway pot; just often enough so nobody forgets it. You actually play very sane and only bet/raise with the goods in the multiway pots. People however remember those HU encounters and you going off, so, you create your big action in the biggest hands and the most people to pay you. The rest is just treading water. The table is now in your control. It is all one gigantic floor plan for crafting a session.