Using an ace on board to get your bet through

[Tosh]

Big stack villain is decent, got his stack from aces in a big pot. This hand is very much experimental. I am messing about with these barely above minimum raises with hands I'd like to play. I take the blinds a decent amount and I've built a little bit of a pot, with a hand that can flop big, when I get called. Plus when theres a lot of action behind I get out cheaply. On the flop he didn't seem keen to call, so I followed through.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t2630)
Hero (t2365)
MP1 (t2795)
MP2 (t2925)
CO (t2110)
Button (t6460)
SB (t1070)
BB (t2140)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t225</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t225, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>,

Flop: (t600) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, Button calls t300.

Turn: (t1200) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t500</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: t1700
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1200 (t1200), won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t500 (t500), returned to Hero.</font>

[MLG]

If you have a feel for a player, firing a second bullet is very very effective. It works beautifully against players who you know don't like to slow play flops.

[SossMan]

The problem with the min+ raise from EP with that type of hand is that it usually wants 0 or 3+ callers. If you are at a table where you can expect to routinely steal the blinds with a min+ bet from UTG+1, then it doesn't really matter what cards you hold. If you are at a table where you will expect 3+ callers, then I like the bet. Many time it will allow a player with a monster a chance to slow play you in a spot where you won't lose many chips w/out a flopped set. If you limp, I think a player behind you with JJ-AA is going to raise, but if you make this little raise, they may feel that it's a good time to slowplay.
Then the flop comes 6 high and the railbirds think you are the fish (ha!)
I think the flop bet/call requires you to fire again on the turn. I wouldn't fire again on the river, though.

[Tosh]

Although stealing the blinds is not the sole purpose, I have been surprised how much everyone folds.

[SossMan]

I think that could be because of the prolification of the "EP min raise w/ monsters" lately. I love players that do that, as it gives me plenty of implied odds to take their stack.

[Tosh]

What do you think overall about these raises with nice playable hands? Decent pairs, JTs and hands of similar potential. I've had some good results so far with the play, I think the advantages outweigh disadvantages with deep stacks.

[MLG]

I like the play, and use it (2.5 BB) pretty much whenever I'm first in after the first hour actually. Although at that point I'm generally not playing hands like J-10 suited from EP. I figure if I limp and I'm only up against 1 or 2 players I'm probably gonna fire out at the pot anyway, so why not both make the pot bigger, and give my flop bet some validity at a cheap price. I generally slow down after the flop though (although its player dependent). Playing this line will sometimes mean I bet out with a big hand on the flop and then check the turn, which really confuses a lot of opponents.


Sidenote: This play is super effective UTG late in tourneys as nobody wants to contes an UTG raise. Also, many times I've found if I limp UTG late in tourneys I get the button because it looks suspicious to everybody else, and I take it down with a flop bet (good for maybe once a tourney). Stealing UTG is not for the weak of heart.

[SossMan]

Well, if you don't see a difference as far as how often these raises get the blinds, then I'm all for it. If a min-raise would often steal the blinds, then that's what I would use. I think that, for me, the table would have to be pretty good (i.e. weak/tight) for me to be able to consistantly steal w/ 2x-2.25x early. I usually go with 3x early and lower it to 2.5x as the blinds get bigger.

Because you should be open raising very often, I think the benefits of the smaller open raise outweigh the risks. I would just realize that you are going to see a wider range of hands than you normally would...especially from the BB. That's okay too, though. Adjust, adjust, adjust.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Although at that point I'm generally not playing hands like J-10 suited from EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh...where are the weak tight police?? You won't limp at a passive table w/ JTs in EP with, say, 25x?

[durron597]

Why would you want to play a drawing hand out of position, SossMan?

[MLG]

For 25x at a passive table absolutely I will, for 15x at a table that sees consistent raising, not for me. So perhaps I should say, many times in the second hour (when the blinds go up to 75-150) if my chips haven't grown (starting at 1500) I'm not playing it. It is, of course, table and tournament dependent.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to play a drawing hand out of position, SossMan?

[/ QUOTE ]

because it's cheap and it sooooooooooooted. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

seriously, if I don't expect a raise behind me, and I can expect multiple callers, and they don't usually charge me for draws, and the stacks are this deep, I think its an easy call.
If one or more of these are not true, then it's muck-time.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
and they don't usually charge me for draws

[/ QUOTE ]

How often does this happen? I can't remember the last time I was at an MTT or SnG table where multiway flops got checked around regularly. There's usually at least 2 people at every table I play at who will bet nearly every flop they play. And these people have low implied odds (since they're just taking a stab) and the pot odds are generally not good enough to call, either.

I would probably play JTs as "EP" as 3 off the button on a full table. Other than that it's a good way to bleed chips IMO.

[SossMan]

first off....JTs isn't JUST a drawing hand...there are plenty of flops that put you way ahead of other calling hands...namely smaller pairs. Of course flopping top pair can get tricky, but the deep stacks should make it fairly easy to get away from a J,2,3 type of flop if there is lots of action.
[ QUOTE ]
How often does this happen? I can't remember the last time I was at an MTT or SnG table where multiway flops got checked around regularly.

[/ QUOTE ]


If the pot is, say 5 handed, and you flop and open ender ( Q,9,x) or a flush draw, and you check, an EP player bets 3/4 the pot, and you get even 1 caller in between, don't you call? Isn't that a +ev position?
If players routinely bet the pot when they catch the flop, then I would consider mucking, but I see so many underbets of the pot, I think I can draw cheaply most of the time. And if they bet the flop big, and I have to lay down...so what, stacks are deep, and I'll have more than enough time to keep playing.

[Tosh]

Have to say the more experience I get - at Stars more so as they play slightly more like 'real tournaments - my play is dramatically evolving. Its kind of fun to experiment.

[gergery]

I have been experimenting with minraises UTG with 22-88 as well and have to say I like it so far. I've gotten folds around probably 70% of the time. I usually will only do it:
- if i've been at a table for awhile and they haven't seen me do anything fishy, or better yet, have seen me raise 3xbb for several raises
- if i haven't been caught doing this before and had to fold it
--if table seems willing to give credit to utg for bigger hands.

If an A or K hits you can bluff at it, and if your set hits its fairly well disguised.

--Greg

[Tosh]

225 is not a minraise, clearly the extra 25 is the key intimidating factor. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Have to say the more experience I get - at Stars more so as they play slightly more like 'real tournaments - my play is dramatically evolving. Its kind of fun to experiment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't really comment since I don't play online, but it seems that, intuitevely, the play will generally trend towards weak-tight as the fishies get just enough knowledge to get them in trouble.
typical evolution = loose passive, weak tight (but at the wrong times), LAG, TAG, SossMan. right? /images/graemlins/blush.gif