A couple of questionable turn checks

[joker122]

Opponent is the same in both hands. He seemed decent, somewhat loose passive.

Hand 1:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.


Hand 2:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls,

Flop: (4.40 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

[Rakkad]

Hand one I would bet, he could have a 5, flush draw or a pocket pair. I'd probably bet the river if he just calls turn and checks river again.

Hand two, I may check and call the river if he likes to CR the turn with trips, which alot of people do.

Though I just started playing 5/10 6 max more.

[Magikist]

Hand 1:

I don't like the flop raise at all. Ask yourself - what am I trying to accomplish with this raise?

Otherwise, the turn check is fine.

Hand 2:

I would be more inclined to bet this turn, since he may continue calling with a draw and will definitely pay off with an ace.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Ask yourself - what am I trying to accomplish with this raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Make more money?

[Magikist]

I won't waste my breath elaborating for a wise ass, but raising the flop in this situation is not +EV.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't waste my breath elaborating for a wise ass, but raising the flop in this situation is not +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Relax. My reply was completely serious as I thought the flop raise was for value.

Would you care to explain why the flop raise isn't +EV?

[naphand]

THe purpose of a raise?

(i) Put more $$ in the pot with the likely best hand.
(ii) Get more money in against a poss. flush draw so the 3rd player is paying.
(iii) Save half a bet by checking behind on the Turn, if he is indeed behind to a K.
(iv) Testing his opponents hand strength.

Are you suggesting he call down, or call the flop and raise the Turn? A call down here is weak-tight Xtreme.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
but raising the flop in this situation is not +EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[Schneids]

Hand one is close EV-wise, I think. I'm inclined to bet, but a check is ok.

I think you have to bet the turn on hand two.

The main difference obviously is the amount of river cards that can come to screw up your respective hands in each case.

[chezlaw]

hand 1: when a passive chap caps pre-flop and you can't beat AA, AK, KK, or QQ its time to slow down. He hasn't got a 5 and the flush draw is highly unlikely. Just about all the time you're behind, choping or he has 2 outs - looks like a perfect time to check the turn.

hand 2: If he might bluff raise the turn then I check the turn and call or bet the river. Against most people, especially loose passives, I think its better to bet.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I won't waste my breath elaborating for a wise ass, but raising the flop in this situation is not +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's ok to argue the merits of smooth-calling, but saying a flop raise in this spot is not +EV seems reaching.

[Magikist]

This post is Exhibit A supporting the argument to always re-read what you've posted, no matter how short.

Yes, the contention that raising a KKx flop with AA is -EV is pretty foolish. This was not the idea I intended to convey with the post. I admit I confused myself regarding the relative and absolute concepts of EV.

Rather, I meant to suggest that in most games smoothcalling the flop is a far superior play. That said, raising is certainly not -EV.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Re: A couple of questionable turn checks

This post is Exhibit A supporting the argument to always re-read what you've posted, no matter how short.

Yes, the contention that raising a KKx flop with AA is -EV is pretty foolish. This was not the idea I intended to convey with the post. I admit I confused myself regarding the relative and absolute concepts of EV.

Rather, I meant to suggest that in most games smoothcalling the flop is a far superior play. That said, raising is certainly not -EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, no big deal.

Also, one thing that troubles me is that my flop and turn play are inconsistent. If I think I have the best on the flop shouldn't I be betting the turn? I am supposed to fear QQ? In that hand, I bet a blank river, he called and showed 77 and MHWG. I guess he decided to take a stand at that point or something.

In the second hand I checked another blank river because I didn't see any worse hands calling (mistake?) He showed QTo and MHWG.

[Magikist]

(i) Yes, a raise MAY get more money in the pot on THIS street. However, you're giving you opponents an opportunity to get away from hands that will may pay you off on later streets. With the presence of a 3rd player who has hardly any outs (unless he has a flush draw), you wouldn't mind him seeing the turn and catching a pair that he will pay off for two big bets, or catch a draw that he'll pay another bet to see. If the SB preflop capper wants to blow off his chips with two outs, why would you want to give him a good reason to fold?

(ii) This factor is negligible.

(iii) So you gain a half a bet when he has a K, and you LOSE half a bet when he would have bet a worse hand the entire way. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and grant that this is a break even point at best.

(iv) This is a garbage reason. Flop "information" is often worse than worthless in this game.

And yes, I think a call down here could be correct in several situations.

[sweetjazz]

In the second hand, I believe that any ace will call the river bet, esp. after you have checked the turn. Also, I think it is unlikely that he is going to go for a check raise after you have checked the turn. So I think you have a clear value bet on the river.

If you bet the turn and were called, then you might consider checking behind on the river. For then there is some chance that your opponent was waiting for the river to check raise, and the other hands you are against are likely to be draws (though I would imagine a lot of people want to see if their ace high is good on an xxyy board). At the very least, I think it is a much closer decision if you have bet the turn.

[Magikist]

At the turn in the first hand, you are at the proverbial "way ahead or way behind" spot. Any decent opponent will fold the hands that you are beating and will checkraise those that are ahead. Obviously, this is a lose-lose situation for you. While it may seem inconsistent, a turn check will save you two bets when you are behind and will gain you a bet when your opponent is induced to bet or call the river with his weaker hand.

This line should be standard for you against the average opponent. However, you need to adjust for other kinds of players.

In the second hand, against most opponents you must bet the turn, and having failed that you then must bet the river. They will still pay to draw despite the double-paired board, and an ace will call you down almost 100% of the time.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Any decent opponent will fold the hands that you are beating and will checkraise those that are ahead. Obviously, this is a lose-lose situation for you. While it may seem inconsistent, a turn check will save you two bets when you are behind and will gain you a bet when your opponent is induced to bet or call the river with his weaker hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this was my thinking at first but then I started to recall all the times I've been checkraised on a turn like this with an underpair. However, he did cap preflop so that's helps the argument for betting the turn and folding to a CR.

[Magikist]

You just formulated EXACTLY why it would be wrong bet this turn. Nice work.

[naphand]

This forum does not exist to allow self-important ego's to score "points" over other people or demonstrate how much smarter they are. I believe joker is genuinely trying to learn from this post, and formulate his ideas.

Perhaps you could explain the need to for

[ QUOTE ]
...Nice work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sarcasm is a pretty weak form of argument, and certainly does not constitute intelligent debate, which is what joker is seeking here.

If you want to post, the best reasons are (i) to help others and (ii) to learn yourself. Maybe think on this before becoming the "wise ass" you decry earlier in the thread.

[naphand]

You asked for "reasons to raise" so I posted some. I did not say these were the right reasons, they were posted to generate some response.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, a raise MAY get more money in the pot on THIS street. However, you're giving you opponents an opportunity to get away from hands that will may pay you off on later streets. With the presence of a 3rd player who has hardly any outs (unless he has a flush draw), you wouldn't mind him seeing the turn and catching a pair that he will pay off for two big bets, or catch a draw that he'll pay another bet to see. If the SB preflop capper wants to blow off his chips with two outs, why would you want to give him a good reason to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the pot is huge and you really don't want backdoors, to get a cheap Turn card, as if they catch they are getting correct odds to call the Turn. It is important that hero has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif as this gives him outs should the Turn complete the flush draw. You sgo on to justify checking the Turn elsewhere, and kicking out CO with a raise allows you to check on the Turn without risk of a bet behind you, and significantly increases the chances of SB checking before you.

[ QUOTE ]
(ii) This factor is negligible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it? Knowing that a lot of players will call here even with just 1 of the 2-suited board? You believe the presence of flush draws on a board is negligible against 2 opponents? Please elaborate, this topic is subject to a lot of discussion across the 2+2 forum so I would have some doubts as to categorising it as "negligible".

[ QUOTE ]
(iii) So you gain a half a bet when he has a K, and you LOSE half a bet when he would have bet a worse hand the entire way. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and grant that this is a break even point at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are taking into account the actions of the 2nd opponent, right? Plus the times he takes a shot with an A or pocket underpair and gives up on the Turn with 2 callers?

and this line seems to contradict your other post

[ QUOTE ]
At the turn in the first hand, you are at the proverbial "way ahead or way behind" spot. Any decent opponent will fold the hands that you are beating and will checkraise those that are ahead. Obviously, this is a lose-lose situation for you. While it may seem inconsistent, a turn check will save you two bets when you are behind and will gain you a bet when your opponent is induced to bet or call the river with his weaker hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
(iv) This is a garbage reason. Flop "information" is often worse than worthless in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it? Is it always a garbage reason? While I agree this concept is horribly over-used there are players who will get tricky in these spots or will only 3-bet a K. With a read on a player, you can use the flop raise to determine if he is on a draw or has a K. If hero suspects a K and knows the player will check to him when raised on the flop, he gets a cheaper SD. There is more "information" to be had from this action beyond the flop, it's not just about what the opponent does on the flop but how his opponent responds to the flop raise on the Turn (tries to CR, bets again, check/calls). This is all information that helps hero in future rounds. Hero has position on him here.

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, I think a call down here could be correct in several situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

and

[ QUOTE ]
I won't waste my breath elaborating for a wise ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your preferred method appears to be not to elaborate, period. If poker was as cut and dried as your posts suggest, then there would be no need for this forum.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Any decent opponent will fold the hands that you are beating and will checkraise those that are ahead. Obviously, this is a lose-lose situation for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe so, but you seem to be ignoring a couple of things. Mainly:

1. your opponents in the Party 10/20 6max are usually not decent.

2. your oppoenents ability to call down all the way with medium pairs here.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't check the turn here. A lot of times I would. If my opponent is good or tricky, I would. Or if he is the type who would almost always have to have a king to make the flop call, I would.

However, if you think that your opponents in this game wouldn't call all the way down with 99,88,77,A5,QJ,etc. or check-raise bluff the turn with a flush draw or absolutely nothing, then you don't really know the players in this game.

A lot of times I would check behind on the turn. But also, a good percentage of the time, checking here just costs you a BB or two, no more no less. Maybe I am less worried about being check-raised than the average player here?