A Lesson Learned

[sthief09]

Background: On Friday night, 2 of my friends and I left for Atlantic City to play at the Tropicana. My plan was to meet up with my girlfriend in Manhattan on Saturday morning, our last weekend together of the summer.

We arrived at 1am. I've taught one of my friends, Justin, the 2+2 way, so he's a pretty nasty player. The two of us planned to play the pink chip game ($7.50/$15, played with $2.50 pink chips), while my other friend, who's still learning but pretty decent, went to play 2/4. There was a pretty substantial list for the pink chip game, so Justin and I played 4/8 first. The 4/8 was great, with 8 or 9 drunk kids seeing every flop, never raising. After a while we both got called to the pink chip game, and I decided not to stay in my soft seat. I left up $100.

At the beginning, it lived up to its reputation as being the most aggressive game around. I sat down my first hand and witnessed someone check-cap the flop with bottom pair, while another guy, who was calling, calling, calling, raked in a massive pot after catching the bottom end of a one-card gut shot. I got rivered with a set after one maniac kept pumping his gut shot and hit. I didn't want to lose more than $300, so after a couple of tough beats, I was about to leave and go back to 4/8. Then we both got called to the main table (the first table was a must-move table). When we sat down, the game was completely different. The maniacs had all either busted or left, and I found myself in a loose and passive game. So I decided to stay. At around 3am, I was down $200. By 5am, I was down $600. That was all the cash I had me, so I asked Justin, up 3 racks ($750) to spot me some cash, and spotted me another $400. Around 8am, the time I was supposed to leave for NYC, I was stuck $800.

Did I leave? No. I vowed to keep playing until I was unstuck. I was confident that I'd get back. I was mostly scared of passing out at the table. I had only gotten a few hours of sleep the two prior nights, and I'd had 10 or 12 cups of coffee to this point, so it was only a matter of time before I just crashed. I said to Justin, "it can't possibly get any worse" and he agreed, so I kept playing.

12 hours later, at 8pm, I was still at the table, now stuck over a dime. Every time I made a small step forward, I'd take a big step back. My AA ran into a turned set of sixes and a backdoor flush, my KK ran into T9 flopping the nut straight, leaving me drawing to runner runner.

I had called my girlfriend a few times during the afternoon, and she was really upset, but I kept playing. She said I sounded doped up (maybe because I kept pounding cups of coffee), and that she never heard me so [censored] up before. I called her at 8 to tell her I was leaving and she was crying.

On my way back, I looked back and considered what I did the day before. I went to AC with 2 intentions, (1) to lose no more than $300, and (2) to leave to see my girlfriend. I didn't meet any of these. I kept playing and playing, needing to get closer to even. The later it got, the tougher the game got. The bad players would bust, and the good players remained. It was survival of the fittest at the table, and I found myself at a table with 8 TAGs. For the first time since I found 2+2, my edge at the table was nonexistent. Despite this, I kept playing, needing to get closer to even.

Then I kept thinking. What had my life become since I started playing seriously? My GPA for my first 3 semesters were 3.5, 3.7, and 3.3, respectively. My GPA last semester was 2.3. My passion used to be baseball. I could tell you the best players on each team in the Appalacian League, or what Luis Castillo hit in 1997. Now I can't even tell you who's in 1st place in the AL West.

The game has completely consumed my life. I eat, sleep, and drink poker. The game is constantly on my mind. The game decides when I sleep, when I study, and when I go out at night. The game made me completely blow off my girlfriend of almost 4 years on our last weekend together before she goes back to school.

My fascination with this game has caused my to waste the last 6 months of my life, and I need to take control of my life again. I'm done with poker, for a while, or maybe forever. It may have been a huge waste of time, but it's not worth losing the most important things in my life, my girlfriend and my education.

I just hope that some of you can learn your lesson through me, and not let a stupid game take control of your life and your mind. So many of you are kids, like me, and it's so easy to let it consume you. There's not much to do over the summer in a lot of places, so poker is a good thing to do. Just please look back at your life before you started playing. Are there things you had that aren't there anymore? Interests or friends? Do any of your friends or family worry about you being too interested in it? If so, consider that you might like the game too much. I'm lucky enough to have realized that I have a problem before it got bad. It's easy to say that as long as you're making money, it's okay. You don't have to be a gambling addict, or lose all your money, to have a problem. I'm not addicted to gambling, but I'm addicted to poker. There are things far more important than a game or money, and I realized that on Saturday.

I just hope one person can get something out of this. I'll be posting here a bit in the future, but I'm dont playing for a while.

Thanks for reading, if you got this far.

[nothumb]

Hey thief,

Thanks for posting this. I have found myself in less extreme versions of the same situation often, and since getting online poker in the house I've been neglecting the old lady to a nearly criminal extent.

I hope you can patch things up and find some balance. I know it's not easy.

Best,
NT

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
On my way back, I looked back and considered what I did the day before. I went to AC with 2 intentions, (1) to lose no more than $300, and (2) to leave to see my girlfriend. I didn't meet any of these. I kept playing and playing, needing to get closer to even. The later it got, the tougher the game got. The bad players would bust, and the good players remained. It was survival of the fittest at the table, and I found myself at a table with 8 TAGs. For the first time since I found 2+2, my edge at the table was nonexistent. Despite this, I kept playing, needing to get closer to even.


[/ QUOTE ]

Same exact thing happened to me at Mirage 6/12 a couple weeks ago and I did the same exact thing. I learned from it and I think you did also. Life goes on. Don't beat yourself up too bad over one night of terror.

Jim

[nepenthe]

Well said sthief, it is crucial not to let any one aspect of your life consume you. It is unfortunate that it took a bad night in poker for you to reevaluate your priorities, but I hope you achieve the balance you seek and come back rejuvenated.

[spamuell]

Thanks sthief, this is an important post and one I will certainly bookmark and remember. I'm really not all that different from you (smart guy with lots of previous interests who has become absorbed in the play of limit hold'em) and I forced myself to take time off the game around my exams, I just hope it was enough.

This really is an all too real reflection of how my life and/or the life of some of my poker playing friends might be developing and I'm certainly going to show it to them. Thanks for taking the time to help others who might be falling into the same trap that you did, and well done for realising the problem before you got even further in.

[SomethingClever]

Yikes. At least you were able to recognize that the sh*t was getting out of hand.

I have a similar sort of personality where I get really, really, really into one thing for a while. I usually don't stop until I feel I've "mastered" whatever it is I'm doing.

Sometimes it's healthy, like playing basketball. Other times, it's somewhat of a waste of time, like trying to beat a video game.

Right now, Poker is on my mind a lot, but I'm trying to keep to the old mantra, "everything in moderation."

And yes, in case you were wondering, I have mastered basketball.

Good luck, sthief!

[MoreWineII]

Good stuff, sthief. I'm about a week and a half ahead of you.

Neglecting the wife and kid = bad.

Playing with money that I *really* couldn't afford to lose = bad.

Staying up til 3 in the morning playing poker on weekdays when I had to be at work at 7 AM = bad.

I'll be back at the tables, eventually, no doubt. I love this game too much to leave it completely. But it will be with a much better mind-set and a better sense of perspective, you can count on that.

[The13atman]

Ouch, sorry to hear that. I've been into poker for a few years but didn't start playing for money online until a few months ago. I still make time for other stuff, but like you said, it's almost always on my mind. I go back to college in a few weeks and am kinda worried that I might end up playing too much. My goal is to play between 5 and 10 hours a week. Hopefully I'll have enough time to play at least 5 hours a week, especially on the weekends, to keep my game sharp, but I might set a max limit of 10 hours a week, just to make sure I don't overdue it. Your story was what I needed to hear. Best of luck.

[bisonbison]

Josh, thanks for posting.

Best of luck with sorting out if poker can fit into your life. I'm a fan of yours, so I'll miss ya, but you've got to do what's good for you. Drop me a line if you're ever in the Bay Area and we'll go enjoy some non-gaming-related idiocy.

[TripleH68]

A few thoughts...

1) Back when I was in college(late 80s/early 90s) we had some great poker games. They were like 10PM to 8AM games with beers. They were fun and social. I made some serious money. But the key is they were not available 24 hours a day/7 days a week. There was not only no internet poker, there was no internet. Having the game always available is just plain dangerous.

2) You have keyed into the most important aspect of pathological gambling. It is not so much about the money. It is about neglecting what is important in your life to feed your fixation. It is about getting your priorities mixed up. It is about feelings of guilt or shame or desperation. I have been in your shoes. With the money you dropped you could have had one helluva time with your girl. This can eat away at you.

3) When this feeling you have subsides you will have the opportunity to dive right back into poker. It will feel soothing. Be careful. You may need to walk away cold turkey for awhile and come back fresh after a time has passed. "Just one night for an hour or so..." Be careful.

Hope this helps a bit. With respect, TripleH.

[radek2166]

sthief. I wish you the best of luck. I hope you do great in school. We have all made mistakes. Thanks for posting.

[joker122]

Awesome post, thief. Everyone who posts here should read it. Taking some time off is the best thing you can do right now. You're a great player, but even if you are the best in the world there's no sense in playing if it has become self destructive.

[onegymrat]

Hi Thief,

At first, I thought this was going to be another rambling about blah, blah, blah, which is so common here. Some will most likely chastise you for whining. But I respect this as a great post, mainly because it is very honest, took courage to write and may touch a lot of players here more than you think.

I'm sure you are not alone in this situation. Unfortunately, your wake-up call came in the form of losing over a grand and making your girlfriend cry. I am in the same boat in many respects, but I will not share that now, for this isn't about me.

Poker is a very fun hobby for me. It makes me money in most cases and it gets my adrenaline going. I know for a fact that if I don't play tonight, the casino will be open tomorrow and those rats that I call opponents will still be there. If I choose to wait until next week, the same will happen.

Your schooling will not wait. You normally get one shot at doing well in college and you must take advantage of it. My crappy GPA in college, back in the days, was not because of poker, but general lack of interest. If I knew back then what I know now, of course, I would have a 4.0 GPA. College did not wait for me to get serious, they gave me a crappy GPA regardless.

Your girlfriend will not wait. I said this to another poster once. If you really value her feelings and companionship, she needs to always come first. A good woman is hard to come by. They take a lot of sh*t from us, but they tend to tough it out. However, after long periods of neglect, they DO leave. She will not wait.

Poker will wait. I think you took this weekend (even though it WAS a serious matter) a bit too seriously. Quitting the game forever would be silly. Would it be wrong to quit forever? Perhaps not. It's no big deal. The game will go on. But if you decide to pick it up again, on an occasional basis, the deck will still spread for you (insert sexual innuendo). The game will wait.

Get you life in order again. Concentrate on your schooling and do well. Surprise your girlfriend with something nice and fix your relationship. I respect your four-year relationship a lot. I don't own much clothing that is four years old. Thanks for sharing. Good luck.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
My fascination with this game has caused my to waste the last 6 months of my life, and I need to take control of my life again. I'm done with poker, for a while, or maybe forever. It may have been a huge waste of time, but it's not worth losing the most important things in my life, my girlfriend and my education.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope that you don't think poker is a complete waste. It certainly teachs you to be analytical and be a good reader of people. That said, too much of anything is unhealthy. Neglecting the other things in your life like your significant other, job or school won't do you (or your significant other) any good.

If you feel that poker is consuming you, I'd take a break from it. If you feel the urge to play again in the future, I wouldn't surpress it, but set a limit.

Do what I do. Make a plan. I used to play 3-4 times a week for 4-10 hours each session neglecting other important things in my life. That was overkill, especially since I work full time. But then I cut back by making other plans with people, going to ball games, going out to dinner, etc.

When you do go to a casino and decide to play. Don't let being stuck be the driving force for you to stay. There will always be good games... always. Set your watch timer to go off in 4 to 5 hours, then pick up your chips and cash out. Also set a limit about how many times you go in a week or month.

Be disciplined in the frequency and length of time playing poker just like patiently waiting for good starting cards and situations. I think you can play poker as long as you balance it with the other important things in your life.

Good luck.

Garland

[MoreWineII]

One more thought along these lines. This is something that will certainly apply to me and I'm sure many others who play poker as a quasi-second income as well:

I really believe the first step towards being able to enjoy poker and not let it affect your every-day life is to have a legitimate bankroll. I'm talking about a *poker-only* bankroll - completely seperate from your everday funds - so that poker isn't becoming a life-and-death situation for you. Then take that legitimate bankroll and multiply it by 3. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I can't tell you how many times an innocent poker session has turned into a mightmarish scene such as sthief described simply because I was playing with money that I *needed* rather than money that I could afford to lose.

Swings suck. The bad beats sting. A *string* of bad beats can destroy you both mentally and emotionally (and physically too in some cases). But I think much less so if it isn't money that you need for school, bills, rent, car payments, food, blah blah blah.

This is one criterion (sp?) that I've set in stone in order for me to come back to the tables. I *will* have a large enough bankroll so that I can stand the swings. And I don't mean just enough to cover the swings. I mean that I will have enough so that the swings won't dictate when I start my session, when I end my session, how I treat my wife/child/friends after a session, how well I sleep, etc etc.

I know that in sthief's post, his demons run deeper than just a deep enough bankroll, and I don't want to detract from such a great post in any way, but I truly believe that a sufficient enough bankroll can significantly decrease the amount of stress that poker will cause in your life.

Another, lesser thing is that I won't be playing online anymore. Several other people have addressed this: the ability to hop in a game at any time from home is too tempting for me. You'd think that it would actually increase the time one could spend at home with family. However, I've come to see that the exact opposite is true in my case.

Again, great post, sthief and good luck to you in the real world.

[Tosh]

Congrats on making the right decision, I hope I will be able to do the same when it comes the time. Though I somehow doubt it.

Good luck in the future.

[Monty Cantsin]

Good post. I think we've all had similar moments of self-destruction and despair. I don't know you that well, but I get the feeling you'll figure this out.

In any event, one of my pet theories is that a huge majority of human error comes from over-correction.

So my advice is fix the problem but don't over-correct.

As a side note, you know what's even more addictive and time-consuming than poker? Poker message boards. Obviously, nothing can touch 2+2 for improving your game. But several times I've found myself staying up til 4 in the morning crafting an elaborate, long-winded post about some arcane poker-related issue or just obsessively browsing all the recent threads, instead of playing poker. That's not poker study, it's obsessive compulsive community addiction.

/mc

[rjc199]

I agree. Take a break from cards for a while. Focus on more important things and come back when you have your priorities straight. Poker can get too consuming.

Frankly, I'm glad I have the opposite impulses as you. When I begin to lose I get mad and want to quit. I don't ever want to stay and try to win it back, I just want to quit because I suck.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, you know what's even more addictive and time-consuming than poker? Poker message boards. Obviously, nothing can touch 2+2 for improving your game. But several times I've found myself staying up til 4 in the morning crafting an elaborate, long-winded post about some arcane poker-related issue or just obsessively browsing all the recent threads, instead of playing poker. That's not poker study, it's obsessive compulsive community addiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly what you mean.


But don't let that stop you from posting here, the loose call chart and the "This is not a joke" posts alone made you one of the best posters here, not to forget your bread and butter posts.

[MoreWineII]

Posting from work for the win!

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I'm glad I have the opposite impulses as you. When I begin to lose I get mad and want to quit. I don't ever want to stay and try to win it back, I just want to quit because I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the same way...I think we are blessed. I simply become disinterested in poker after I've been losing. But it didn't always used to be like that for me. When I first started playing I would go on tilt and play for hours until I was even again (usually never getting there) after a losing session. Only recently did I reach this level of poker enlightenment (Ha).

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Thief,

Congratulations on making the right choice for yourself and on a great and very important post.

Poker is a game of discipline, and learning to control your lust for the game is just another area that needs to be mastered. For a very select few, that may turn out to be impossible and the best choice for them is to leave the game. But for most of us, it's merely a matter of self-discipline, just like so many other areas of poker. When it comes to living a happy and fulfilled life, it's thee most important aspect of poker that we can learn to master. Playing tight before the flop, learning to use relative position, and conquering tilt are all things that good poker players have learned to do, but when it comes to playing and thinking about poker in moderation, many otherwise solid poker players fail. I'm glad to hear that you've recognized this in your own life. I'd also encourage you, when you're ready, to think about what caused this problem. Was it the game of poker in and of itself? Or was it the fact that you simply failed to recognize this area of weakness in your life and do something to keep it in cheque? If the latter, I'd encourage you to give poker another try (when the time comes) with a different mindset as to its role in your life. If the former, then you should most definitely stick to the decision you've made.

Nothing but the best,

GoT

[Haupt_234]

I will surely miss your intelligent posts and insight, but I wish you the best of luck in where you decide to take your life to.

Everything is meant to be, and I am sure you made the right choice.

Best of luck to you,

Haupt_234

[turnipmonster]

I am totally like that also. when I'm having a bad streak, about the last thing I want to do is play cards.

--turnipmonster

[ddubois]

This sounds exactly like threads I would read when I played EverQuest, about people who let the game take over their life, to the detriment of their grades, health, realtionships, career, etc.

Personally, I spent too much time on EQ when I played EQ (something like 5000 hours over 3-4 years), too much time on MTG when I played MTG, and spend too much time on poker currently. My wife keeps me in check somewhat, but really, she's in a perpetual state of frustration. I tell her tough [censored], she knew I was this way when she married me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif But I must concede, I have an addictive personalty when it comes to gaming. (This is why I've never experimented with drugs - I know me too well! It would be like mixing fire and gunpowder.)

But in all seriousness, I have doubt that there is hope for people like us. You can take breaks, get away from the game for a bit, yada yada, and that's all well and good. Do it because it'll make you feel better. But is it a long-term solution? Will you or I be "cured"? I doubt it - we are talking about core facets of our personality. If you are like me, I think you'll eventually just find some other avenue to channel your craving for intellectual stimulation, and when you find it, you'll become as obessed with it as you did poker. Is this the nicey-nicey thing to say? No it's not, sorry. Is it the cold hard truth? I dunno, maybe. Good luck regardless.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Posting from work for the win!

[/ QUOTE ]

Quitting 3 Party tables to better focus on, and contribute to, an ongoing debate in the micro forum about a preflop call... for the block.

[cnfuzzd]

Thief, you are a talented player, and have shown discipline and control within the context of the game. However, everyone at some point or another does what you did. You can't help it, and if you arent used to it, its very hard to just walk away whenever we hit our "stuck" limit. That having been said....it couldnt have felt good to walk out of the casino stuck a grand, with a crying girlfriend waiting(hopefully) on you. The most dangerous aspect of poker, in my opinion, is the devestating effect it can have on our psyche, positive and negative. When you win your first thousand, you are ten feet tall and shitting bullets. When you lose that grand, it can make you feel like the utter scum of the earth, slinking away from whatever horrible rape job was just done on you. As someone who seems like they will play in the future, trust that eventually you will be able to take all these things in stide.
However, i think taking a break is probably a good idea, especially if you feel that your priorities are out of line. Retreat, regroup, and reattack.
I am looking forward to your return, as long as its not to my table /images/graemlins/grin.gif

peace

john nickle

doped up, eh? "crack rocks give me wings!!!"

[MoreWineII]

Good point. You could interchange the word "poker" in this post with online gaming, partying, drinking, message boards, chat rooms, or any number of other things.

In fact, I've posted a link to this thread on another message board that I regularly post on. It was that good.

[BigEndian]

I won't preach, but I think you have more than one influence converging on you at the same time. Give it a couple of weeks, re-assess and go from there.

- Jim

[aas]

Sthief09,

I now also respect you as a courageous person, as opposed to only a good poker player. It takes courage to recognize negligence, and it take courage to put it out there for members of a community where you are respected. You are also generous to advise us about what is awaiting us if we are not careful. Thank you.

There are already excellent replies out there, so I won't make this too long. Just wanted to say that prioritizing things in your life helps a lot(you have already started). For example, for me, poker comes after my private life (wife), studies and finally job. So I put all my efforts on theses things first, then I get to poker (hence my lack of regular posts). Poker is my hobby, and I'd like to keep it this way.

Every once in a while, I think about my priorities and analyze my situations. Often, I realize that things are getting out of hands. I do not perform as well in my job, and even my studies are starting to suffer. Poker is moving up in ranks. That's it's nature. Poker always wants to move up in ranks and be "first priority". I take some time off from the game, recover losses if any, and put poker back where it belongs: my hobby.

Well, my poker career is very short (less than a year) so I don't know if this is always going to work, but it's my plan. I hope it works. I will save your post, and I'm sure it will help me some day.

Recover your non-poker losses if any, then prioritize. I hope you find a place for poker, but if not, it's ok.

Good luck,
aas.

[MAxx]

I definitely understand... this definitely hits home with me. I discovered online gambling in grad school 6 years ago, and boy did I catch the buzz. I was lucky to make one last $900 best on the Lakers to get me square. If this didnt come through I didnt know what to do. I quit after that. A few years later, I had a run in with online blackjack and had a week where I was making a grand a night. Then the bottom fell out and I was stuck. I quit, but this time I was down big. I may have ruined myself if I had access (or was aware of) to online poker and 2+2 back in college. Then I found gambling with an edge, yes informed poker. I have been heavily involved with that for a year. It has been pretty good to me, and I have actually gotten a lot of discipline from it that I successfully applied to other aspects in life. However, I do overdo it sometimes... so your post is good for a lot of us, so that we can at least reflect on the need to keep a healthy balance. I have really enjoyed your posts, and will miss your insights and humor. Please come back sometime and let us know how things are going. I am hopeing that you will find your balance and get back in the game when you are ready. Best of Luck, man.

[RustedCorpse]

All things in moderation. I quit myself about four months after I started playing because of a similar situation. I have to say when I came back I almost always have limits now, it's about self control. I think it's great to step back and clear your head for awhile. I wish you the best of luck, if you ever want to go hang out somewhere drop one of us a line. I frankly have no non-poker friends in the city so we should do some "man stuff" like go to a game or drink beers or something.

Best of luck,

Shaun

[colgin]

sthief09,

I just wanted to quickly thank you for your massive contributions to this forum over the past year. I know it has helped my game greatly and I have thoroughly enjoyed "knowing" you, albeit only online. I also thought this post of yours was courageous and of great benefit to the rest of us in terms of giving us something to think about. I hope you find the balance in your life that you are looking for but also have the time to occassionally drop in and say hello.

Good luck and best wishes.

Colgin

[Festus22]

Excellent post my friend.

The fact that you reached such an epiphany at an early age may be one of the best things that could ever happen to you. It's amazing how many of us share the same life cycles. I read posts about all nighters, mega-partying, hanging with the guys, etc. Been there, done that and don't regret a minute of it. But as one gets older (oh how it pains me to say that /images/graemlins/blush.gif), your entire outlook changes and a whole new perspective on life emerges. I don't have the skills to properly explain it but suffice it to say, you'll know what I mean when you get there. And I think you just took a huge leap toward it. You've got a lot of living left to do and what you do today will have a huge impact on laying the foundation on what those years will look like. Will it be raise, call or fold?

Sounds to me like it's a raise. Well done and best of luck.

P.S. - Sorry for getting so philosophical.

[Blarg]

I used to play way too much Everquest too. I was even an officer in a guild, and actually wound up playing it long past the point where I had stopped enjoying it, just because I have a personality that makes me not want to quit until I feel satisfied I have reached my goals. I was obsessive about Doom and and a few other games, too. Generally that's a great way to get good at something, but getting good at that thing may not be too important in the overall scheme of things.

I think poker has a lot more to recommend it, but for obsessive or addictive personalities, almost anything you can do can be come a candidate for that obsession, and quitting one just means taking up another sooner or later. I'm playing a lot of poker, but don't want to cross a line I think I crossed many times with other games.

It's definitely a good idea to just walk away sometimes, if only for variety's sake, even if you feel you have things perfectly under control, I think. That's one way you can find out how under control you really have things in the first place. Something like poker will always be there when you get back.

[Blarg]

Great post, sthief.

Taking a good thing too far is pretty normal. That's what good things make you want to do. And losing perspective can make you extend things still further. I've stayed up all night trying to get money back playing poker, and I bet a huge percentage of poker players have. I wouldn't feel too bad about doing that -- it probably will happen to most poker players sooner or later. Disappointing your girlfriend sounds like the real unfortunate part of things -- worse than losing a grand or losing discipline and perspective.

It's good that you take that as seriously as you do. Breakdowns in relationships can happen one tiny thing at a time that people brush off as if they didn't matter, but once your partner's feelings doesn't matter, it's not that important if it's regarding something small or big -- it's just the terrible premise that matters. You didn't do it intentionally really, but most women would need a lot of reassurance after that. Women will often see 2 seconds, good or bad, as reflective of eternity. While lots of men would probably forget even our own birthdays if nobody reminded us.

Anyway, I hope you patch things up with her.

If you feel that the last months playing poker were a total waste, then it sounds like you may have needed to tone down your playing for a while. Your post only talked about one night's waste, so there must be something deeper going on.

If you tend to be obsessive and that has led to problems for a while now, hopefully you'll control that instead of just rejecting whatever obession of the moment you have. There won't be much point just finding another obsession and starting the whole process over again.

I'm trying to keep an even keel myself. I know I'm obsessive, and it's often done very positive things for me, but it can make me almost obliterate anything else in my life when I concentrate on one thing. Poker tends to need plenty of hours and borderline obsessive behavior if one wants skill raises and/or some good money from it, so it's going to be especially hard for me to keep my own head straight playing poker. There will ALWAYS be a reason and a temptation to play it a little too obsessively.

Don't blame yourself for being just as human as everybody else. Recognizing a real or potential problem means you're quite a big step ahead of many. After you cool down some and your soul seems more in order, and your love life and everything else get back on an even keel again, some time off will probably be good for you just to get used to not being obsessive for a while. That will help you build up some strength, and the perspective to decide where to take your poker playing.

That's the best time to make long-term decisions on something like poker. You don't want to be as obsessive about not playing poker as you might have been about playing it. That's just trading getting carried away one way for getting carried away another, not fixing what might be an inability to just keep things in perspective and not get carried away.

It sounds like you're making a good long-term decision right now to keep in mind what your girlfriend means to you, though, and it's never too soon to get that kind of thing straight.

Good luck! The time off will probably do you some good, and if you don't come back to poker, there are lots of other things in life. If you do, you'll probably come back more happy and balanced, which I guess is how we'd all like to do things in life.

Don't feel too bad you realized you got a wake-up call. Most of us go through that one way or the other. It's only bad if you don't take advantage, and wind up learning nothing.

[me454555]

Its a sad day whenever 2+2 looses a quality poster like yourself. I have to thank you b/c a lot of you're posts have helped out my game a whole lot. I understand what you're going through and wish you the best.

[ZootMurph]

It definitely won't be the same without you are, sthief... but getting life's priorities in order at your age are very important, and it's great that you know/have learned that.

Good luck, and even if you aren't playing poker, it would be nice to have you stop by to say hi ocassionally.

[PokerNoob]

sttheif09,

As a fellow obsessive type, I completely understand where you're coming from. Here's the important thing: getting stuck huge and making bad poker decisions is poker tilt, but risking your relationship with your girlfriend is life tilt. Just being a 2+2er means the first one is probably fixable, but you need to work on that 2nd thing first.

I've greatly enjoyed your posts, analysis and thoughts on the game. You will be missed, and I do hope you come back refreshed and with a new perspective on things. Good Luck!

[StellarWind]

sthief,

I'm truly sorry about what happened to you. You are one of my favorite posters and have made many contributions to this forum. You've helped my game and many others, so in my book your poker career is not a complete waste.

I know you feel terrible right now, and honestly, that's probably a good thing. Do what you need to do to fix your life. But later on remember that we all make mistakes. No one died here and no one's life is ruined. Don't forget to forgive yourself in the end.

It sounds like your girlfriend is a really special person. Take good care of her. As bad as you hurt right now, you may find in a few weeks or months that you've set your life right and feel better. You may actually become annoyed that she remains hurt or frightened instead of moving on like you have. Remember my words when that time comes. You have the power to feel better by doing better. She doesn't. All she can do is hope you've learned your lesson and never do this again. That's a helpless feeling and it won't go away easily. Part of your penance is being very, very patient with her when this happens.

I'd love for you to come back, but only you can decide if you should. You will be missed. Take care of yourself and remember that 2+2 is like the game itself. It will always be here waiting for you.

Goodbye,
StellarWind

[Ralph Wiggum]

sthief09, your posts have been a great contribution (the nuts) to the forum. I've noticed that you've accumulated an incredibly large number of posts in such a short period of time, reflecting how much time you've spent on poker. I know other people who are fanatical w/ hobbies, games, or a certain lifestyle. Unfortunately, this causes them to sacrifice the important priorities of life. Maybe you'll come back with better control, and maybe you won't. I just wish you the best of luck, b/c it's obvious that you're an intelligent person capable of accomplishing things outside of this game if you feel inspired to. For all poker can teach us, if you do choose to leave this game, I'd wager that other things in life can teach you (and the rest of us) just as much or even more. Thanks again for your posts and Good Luck!!!

*Edit: Life lesson for $800 is definitely +EV

[MRBAA]

As an older (mid-40s, with writing career and family) player, I've often wondered about the many 20-30 year old players I've seen who are obsessed with the game. I've had my own problems with poker taking up too much time. Hence, I've completely stopped online play and limit myself to one live session of about 7 hours per week, plus reading poker books and reading/posting here. However, I didn't get into poker, beyond weekly nickel-dime games, until I was already over 40, with my wife, kids and career path already in place. In my 20s, I was single and still deciding on what to do. I could easily have blown a few years on poker, instead of spending more time on more valuable things like writing, friends and girlfriends. It goes by fast, so those first years of adulthood are really important to use well. For a very few, pro poker is a good way to develop their lives, either for the long-term or just for awhile. Sounds like GOT may be one. But for most of us, it's a great hobby as long as we keep it in its place. I'm also obsessive, and have gotten into golf, hoops etc. big time. But poker is much more addictive -- it's gambling and it plays into our brain chemistry. Some are more susceptible than others, but all of us need to deal with this fact if we want to continue as players for life. I doubt that there is a single serious poster here who hasn't had issues with playing too much. Getting stuck and tilting one night is no big deal, but neglecting school and relationships is. Best of luck to you in restoring balance to your life.

[Avatar]

Sthief, I wish you the best of luck in all your many many endeavours in life. I have a feeling you'll be quite successful.

Best Regards,
Andrew

[sfer]

Josh,

If you decide to come back we'll welcome you; if you don't, we'll miss you. Thanks for the rides home and raising my BB and flashing 72o after I folded.

All the best,
Dave

[woty87]

Hey sthief,

I reasonably new to this forum, but I have enjoyed your posts in the short time I've been reading them.

I don't pretend to have the wealth of poker experience that many of the other forum members have, but I can say that I
am a professional expert when it comes to issues such as gambling addiction etc...

Most of the replies to your post have contained very sound advice. I would like to add just one thing, which is that you should not give up completely on a game that you obviously love so much. The reason I can say this confidently is your original post. Just the fact that you have the insight, intelligence and self-awareness to have posted what you did speaks volumes for your life skills and abilities. There are many people who are simply not capable of that level of self-diagnosis. Trust me. You are exactly the kind of person who can find the right balance and keep priorities in your life.

Unfortunately, there are many people who need to quit cold-turkey and never play poker, or video games or whatever their obsession. But you are NOT one of them. Don't cut out of your life something that is important to you. I have no doubt that you will find a way to balance it in your life and make playing poker a life-enhancing hobby. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[W. Deranged]

Sthief,

Very, very good post. Thanks a lot. I'm a student too, and I notice exactly the same sort of thing happening to me. I have managed to keep things relatively in order, particularly giving up internet poker, which was so available that it scared me. Thanks for helping us all to remember that this is just a game...

[Lost Wages]

This really happened, I swear.

I'm at work. I reading this very thread instead of working. I have a lot of work to do. The phone rings, it's my wife. I keep reading, not paying attention to her, just giving the occasional uh-huh. I'm still reading, not working, not listening to my wife when the lightblub goes off. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Anyway, we've all been there my friend. You blew-off your girlfriend and that sucks. I've blown-off my kids, that really sucks. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

That being said, I still think that it is important for people to have a hobby. Something that they enjoy and can strive to be good at. For some it's golf, for others fishing or needlepoint or whatever. For us it is poker. The important thing of course is to keep the proper balance.

I've enjoyed reading your posts over these last several months. Hope to hear from you again soon but if not, best of luck.

Lost Wages

[MoreWineII]

That's where a lot of people have trouble, including myself. I'm talking about keeping it as a hobby.

It's very easy to become obsessed with poker.

Unless you live under a very specific set of circumstances, it's very difficult to play as much as we'd probably all like to.

[joker122]

That's some good irony.

[slogger]

Sthief, congrats on recognizing your problem and having the guts to correct it. As almost every other respondent to this post has acknowledged, I too have allowed poker to interfere with things that should be priorities in my life (wife, work, etc.). And as much as I love poker, it isn't worth losing what's important.

Thanks for the wake up call. If nothing else, I will use your post as a daily reminder of the necessity of balance. Best of luck to you!

And, as many of the other NYC-area posters have said, I'd love to head out and grab a beer or catch a Yankee game sometime, so feel free to drop me a line.

-Brian

[ErrantNight]

Thanks... I read this at a very important time in my life... just as I'm about to enter a semester of school where I probably won't have time for ANY on-line poker... and live poker infrequently... it's tough because I feel I'm experiencing my third stage of rapid development since I learned poker years ago... and as the games get easier to beat, and the money and prospect of more grow more tantalizing (particularly when I hear stories about friends and friends of friends who I KNOW are less talented than I cashing out with more than I've earned) it gets easier and easier to play poker instead of doing other, productive things... but even when I'm not "neglecting" things, per se, I still don't feel as happy and fulfilled at the end of a poker session as I do doing other, more creative things...

It reminds me of watching a good movie, and then turning around and watching another, or playing any computer game for too long... enjoyable, but ultimately unsatisfying.

I don't want to turn this around and make this about me... but maybe I do... I wanted to let you know that as silly as it is your random post about a situation I'm still far removed from provides a wake-up call to me before I need one... when I recognize I'm setting myself up for a fall, but I'm so careful about it no one else does...

This is not to say I don't love poker or feel I can integrate safely into my life, just that if I continue on the road I'm on, I'll end up short on sleep fighting to stay even on-line, or in a casino, when I should be putting the cap on a great college career, preparing for my career beyond that, and figuring out how to move across the country with the most amazing woman I've ever met...

I truly hope that something that has been the source of so much enjoyment can be reintegrated back into your life in a safe and enjoyable manner at some point, but if it does or doesn't I hope your decisions make you happy, and I appreciate your selfless, cathartic outpouring all the more because it has brought to my attention a growing issue of my own that I would have neglected until it was a problem.

Good luck, and thank you,
Derek

[Dylan Wade]

When you break out of a long negative cycle in life, it's important to take from it something positive. Usually this is as simple as finding something you learned from it (No, "I learned poker is stupid" is not good enough).

Even if it was truely a waste of time, you need to make something up. You can't proceed confidently in life with something like this in your mind.

Maybe you can somehow incorporate this into the "I'm sorry" card you write your GF. Tell her what you learned. But don't pretend like you've given up poker. Even if you have, nobody will believe it. It's too recent. Actions speak louder than words... but it will take a long time for people to notice.

Besides, you don't have to give up poker. You need to take a break. Find something better. Allow yourself to become bored. Throw out your TV for a couple months and pick up some sports..

At least that's what I've done. And I am 10x happier, since.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Joe Tall]

One of the greatest things I ever read here when I first started playing was, "Balance your life".

You'll find your way.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[lil']

You'll be back.

But you have been posting a helluva lot. I was wondering when you came up for air. I guess you didn't.

Take a breather. See you in a few.

[MrHorace]

Josh,
Your message could not have hit me on the head if it was a sledge hammer. I've only been playing a short time, 10 months, and play live, not on-line.
I consider myself smart, but the BIGGEST leak in my game is staying too long at the tables. I've found that 4 hours is about the limit before my brain goes to mush, and I start playing AWFULLY. The other night I was playing, getting in very few hands, and an older lady next to me, who plays 3-5 times a week, and dealt blackjack in the casinos, commented on my good play. When I mentioned this to my girlfriend, she asked why did the lady say that. My response, "she saw how selective I was, and I got out when I should have." I went on that night to catch some awesome hands, quad A's, A's full of 9's Nuts vs. A's full of 8's, etc. Was up about $20 (2/4 game), and then the dams opened!!
Dumbest thing, 99 in mid-position, flop TTx, I bet, continued to bet, etc. call raises, you name it. Of course I lost to trip 10's. I should have left then.
However, like you (and others I'm sure) I kept playing trying to get back on track, get even, not wanting to walk away down $20-$30, you name it. In the end, after 6+ hrs playing, I walked away w/$0. Down my $100 bankroll.
The fortunate thing I've got going for me is I don't play w/more than $100, and DO NOT reach into the pocket.
But from now on, I will consciously think of your post, and of the other great posts on 2+2 to become a better, more disciplined poker player.
Thanks again, and do come back.

[vulturesrow]

Good luck in finding your middle ground. I personally appreciate the posts you made here and your generally good sense of humor. I know you have good friends here, dont forget them since they are definitely positive result of your poker playing. I hope to see you around here in the future, but if not, best of luck in your life.

All the best,
Chris

[Garbonzo]

Read this thread a few times. Cut it out, keep it, show your girlfriend. Relax, forgive yourself, learn, think, slow down, take a walk, read a book, give your girl a hug.

Life is short and precious, you are WAY ahead of most, stop and smell the roses. This is but the smallest of bumps along the road.

Peace and Love.

[kenewbie]

Thank you for posting this sthief, everyone needs a wakeup call now and again, and I suspect that this forum is crowded with people who know exactly what you are talking about. Some, like me, have been there before and need this repeated occationally before we drift back into old habits.

You say your passion used to be baseball, but I doubt this is really about poker. Its about allowing something, anything, to consume you to a point where everything else goes to hell. Poker is just what triggered it for you. Everquest has been mentioned, actually I am unable to think of a hobby that havent had this effect on someone.

I will bet you that the majority of people who post regularly on these boards are either now, or have at some point been heading down that road.

It's hard when it hits you, but you should be able to find some sort of comfort in the fact that this ephiphany has made you a smarter person. You have probably felt that things where getting a bit out of control earlier aswell, be happy that you didnt find some way to rationalize it away this time.

I have been through this before and I feel like I have to give some advice.

Dont tell your girlfriend that you will quit playing poker. Even if this is truly your heartfelt intention at this point, it will tear down any trust you have rebuilt if you at some point decide that you are able to play at more controlled level, without building your entire world around it. You may feel like you want to quit, and that is a good thing. You may even quit for good, but no good can come from promising this to someone else. Just dont play, that should be sufficient.

And pay heed to what stellarwind said, insight like this is hard to come by:

"You have the power to feel better by doing better. She doesn't. All she can do is hope you've learned your lesson and never do this again. That's a helpless feeling and it won't go away easily. Part of your penance is being very, very patient with her when this happens."

Good luck,
k