King high flush...

[chaz64]

Paradise Poker 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

I'm now thinking I should have raised here...but anyone with the A/images/graemlins/club.gif would have the correct pot odds to call and hang in there, would they not? Or should I have raised anyway, for "value," and not live in fear of the Ace?

River: (9.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 21.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 21.75 BB, between CO, Hero, BB and UTG+1.</font>

[chief444]

Raise the flop.

I think the turn call is actually OK...not because of what you were wondering about the A /images/graemlins/club.gif (it isn't going anywhere) but because you want overcalls with such a strong hand.

[bisonbison]

Raise the flop. you have 3 people in for 1 bet, you have position, and you will make money on every extra bet that goes in.

I would raise the turn (of course if you raise the flop you don't have to worry about this). Don't worry about who's getting proper odds - you have a made hand and are going to win this a ton of the time - get as much money in as possible.

The river sucks but I would have to call all those bets.

[Bill Smith]

Preflop: Fold this. It's not the worst call in the world, but the only way this hand usually wins is with a flush, and you really need two ways to win to play a hand.

Flop: Raise it up! You have a 2:1 shot at hitting your flush on the turn or river, and therefore you should raise if you can lock at least 2 people into calling the raise. UTG, UTG+1, and CO have already paid 1 - they'll pay 2.

Turn: Raise it up! Yes, A /images/graemlins/club.gif has the correct pot odds to see the river, but there is an extremely good chance you have the best hand and you want to charge that A /images/graemlins/club.gif to see it. To put it another way, if you're not raising here, when are you raising?

River: You have to call it down, but you don't have to like it. BB probably has the A /images/graemlins/club.gif and CO probably had something like a J /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[papawawa]

You have 2 callers between yourself and the flop bettor - RAISE! You are getting very decent odds here to draw to the 2nd nuts. On the turn when CO bets - raise! This will charge the A /images/graemlins/club.gif a whole lot to draw out on you (not saying that it will prevent him though); remember at this point you have the best made hand, and therefore should be very aggressive.

[chief444]

Bison,

You're probably right about just raising the turn...but at least give me that it's a little closer of a decision than every one is making it out to be. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif Am I way off base on this?

[bisonbison]

Chief, I'm sure that going for calls here is good too, and may be higher +EV. I just like to give people a chance to be their loose selves.

I think the lack of a flop raise is the biggest problem in the hand.

[chief444]

Thanks bison. Again after thinking about it in what is typically a very loose game I agree that a turn raise is fine. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't completely off on that based on the other responses. Obviously I agree on the flop.

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

D'oh! Gee, that would have got me a "free card" (which I did not need) and probably would have driven out the Big Blind (who had the A/images/graemlins/club.gif !)

I am embarassed at my stupidity. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I really do hope to learn how to play this game someday...

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Fold this. It's not the worst call in the world, but the only way this hand usually wins is with a flush, and you really need two ways to win to play a hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking on Kxs is that I'll play it on the button or CO, not in earlier position. With few opponents, if I hit a pair of kings I might very well have the only King and the best hand; I might also hit a BDFD. With many opponents I have the odds to draw to the flush (although I realize that hitting the pair of kings ONLY will likely mean I'm outkicked).

[chief444]

The free card would be nice if desired but it's a good value raise as well. You're 2:1 to make your flush by the river plus you have an overcard and a lot of opponents.

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
The free card would be nice if desired but it's a good value raise as well. You're 2:1 to make your flush by the river plus you have an overcard and a lot of opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you consider the flush draw and the overcard, I do have 12 outs, which sure sounds good. However, the flush draw is not the nut flush, and the overcard that could give me top pair has a poor kicker and I have a lot of opponents, any of which could have KQ, KJ, KT or K9, all giving top/middle pair, straight and/or overcard possibilities and reason to stay in the hand. I guess I'm not really sure when a value bet is justified.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
However, the flush draw is not the nut flush

[/ QUOTE ]
No. It's the 2nd nut flush...A very strong draw.

The K outs are not worth a lot compared to the flush draw but certainly are worth some.

If you always raised a flush draw in this situation (even 23s) you would increase your overall expectation compared to always just calling. So as a general rule until you get a better understanding I would recommend leaning towards aggression.

[chaz64]

Thanks for your help Chief.

One more question: Would you value bet a flush draw if the board paired on the flop or turn, or just call then?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
One more question: Would you value bet a flush draw if the board paired on the flop or turn, or just call then?

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends. If the flop is something like QQT then probably not. If it is 227 then usually I would. You need to generally consider how likely it is that the flop hit your opponents. A pretty vague answer but hopefully it gives you some idea. The best thing to do is keep posting similar hands to get a better feel.