KK in the SB

[davidross]

This is from last nights $11 rebuy at Stars. Rebuy period is over. Blinds are 100/200, I have 6945 in the SB with KK. folded to the cutoff(9040) who raises it to 1000. Button(5160) calls cold. On me now. How much to bet?

I wasn't sure if an all-in will get called here. THe size fo the raise leads me to believe the original raiser isn't all that strong, but raising anything less than all-in almost commits me to the pot anyway. I suppose I could make it 3K and see if I could milk it, but what if an A flops? do I bet at it anyway?

I did raise all-in and they both folded. I wonder if I'm missing opportunites to get more out of hands, or if I should just be happy to pick up 10BB's worth of chips without seeing a flop?

On a related note I busted out on a slowplayed hand later. THe guy on my left had been a thorn in my side all night. If I limped, he raised big and I had to fold. If I raised he seemed to call every time. I had given up limping by now, and I made a MP raise to 900 (blinds now 150/300)with KJs. My buddy cold called me and so did the BB. Flop came KKT and after the BB checked, I bet 1K hoping it looked weak. Buddy thought a long time and pushed in. BB folded and I called in a shot (I had him covered by 1500). He had 66. Before I could cheer, a 6 turned, I didn't fill on the river and I was crippled, out a few hands later. The poker gods have a sick sense of humour. Just when I thought I played a hand perfect....

[MLG]

I think out of position, with two callers you have to push. If you were behind him, 3K and then decide on an A might be better, but here even if they both fold you get a nice 2K bump to your stack. If you don't want to move all-in then maybe a call if you want to get cute (but I don't like getting cute against two opponents one of whom can bust you).

As for the guy next to you. I seriously lower my limp reraise standards against these guys. Also, consider just limping with any hand you want to play and then calling his raise, disguises your hand (since he's just going to call your raise anyway).

The 6 is brutal, but be careful of the BBP (Bad Beat Police). They offer no quarter, even against well respected posters.

[ohkanada]

I likely would have pushed like you did. Maybe you can make to 3500 and bet out on any flop. That gives an Ace a relatively cheap look at the flop.

On your bustout hand I would have played it the same way. I might have bet a tad more on the flop.

Ken

[fnord_too]

I push here too with two people in the pot. Slow playing kings against one person is something I have occasionally tried, and would try again in some spots, but only rarely.

[davidross]

I wasn't suggesting just calling, but I wondered if a smaller raise to build the pot a bit would work.

[fnord_too]

I mispoke somewhat, I was thinking trapping with a small bet or calling when I said slowplay, not necessariyly calling (more about my thoughts on calling later). If you make a small bet that wants a call and the CO calls, there is a good chance the button calls too. Kings out of position with two opponents can be rough. After an aceless, kingless flop you bet out all in I think, but you will get called by any hand beating you and possibly anyone getting the right price to draw. I just don't like going to the flop here with two opponents if I am not all in. I much prefer hoping one of my opponents has a hand he thinks he needs to call my all in with.

Increasing my stack by 1/3 is pretty nice. Maybe I am too cautious, but I would rather win right now or have all the betting done right now. What could you raise? Mini raise by 800? Now you show strength and your opponents can make an informed decision on the flop if they call. I like smooth calling better than trying to induce a call with a small raise. If your raise pot commits your opponent(s) (and they are bright enough to realize this), what is the difference between all in and raising small? If it does not pot commit them, why give them information when you will be looking for action on most flops and glad you saved the chips on the others? If you are looking for someone to come over the top of you pre flop, I think anyone who would do that in this spot would call your all in outright.

[davidross]

I clearly thought all-in was best too, it was certainly the safest, and I was hoping for QQ or JJ to call. I just wondered if I made it 3K to go;
1) would they be any more likely to call that than the all-in?
2) am I more likely to get a flop that hits them enough to call my flop bet, or get an A on the flop that freezes me.

[jacksfull]

I'm going to break with the other replies and say that you should have re-raised it to about 3000. As you said, the first raiser was probably not that strong, and would likely have folded. The caller who called a 1000 raise would have called 2000 more and is surely behind you in the hand. (If he had aces, wouldn't he re-raise himself?) You can always go all in after the flop so long as there isn't an ace on the board. And if you have to get away from this hand, you still have more than 10x the big blind, so you're not completely out of it.

Pushing is not necessarily awful, and is the safest play, but you really want one caller here to get the most out of your kings. I'm not talking about slow playing. I'm just talking about making an appropriate raise to limit the field.

By the way, last week I was in a cash game in which I was running over the table. My reraise was called by a woman who was playing tight all night. With about $60 in the pot, I bet $75 on the flop with Q-9-7 on the board. I was trying to get rid of her, but if didn't want to lose my shirt if she had aces. She re-raised me all in for another $60, which I had to call. I was sure that she had aces, but she only turned over Q-J. It turns out she thought I was trying to buy it with a middle pair. Another Jack on the river and I lost my shirt anyway. So playing it straight can cost you too.

[BAD BEAT POLICE]

and I made a MP raise to 900 (blinds now 150/300)with KJs. My buddy cold called me and so did the BB. Flop came KKT and after the BB checked, I bet 1K hoping it looked weak. Buddy thought a long time and pushed in. BB folded and I called in a shot (I had him covered by 1500). He had 66. Before I could cheer, a 6 turned, I didn't fill on the river and I was crippled, out a few hands later. The poker gods have a sick sense of humour. Just when I thought I played a hand perfect....


HMMM, CHECKING MY RECORDS, I SEE THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY
PRIORS, SO THIS IS OUT OF THE ORDINARY FOR YOU, DAVID. I
DON'T KNOW WHAT GOES THROUGH THE CRIMINAL'S MIND WHEN THEY
ARE COMMITTING A BAD BEAT CRIME, AND I GUESS I'LL NEVER
FIGURE IT OUT...BUT DAMMIT!, SOMEONE HAS TO CLEAN UP THIS TOWN, SOMEONE HAS TO MAKE IT SO CRIMINALS LIKE YOU ARE OFF THE STREET, AND MY CHILDREN, AND MY CHILDREN'S CHILDREN CAN ONCE AGAIN GO DOWN TO THE POKER ROOM AND NOT HAVE TO HEAR ANOTHER "SO I RAISE BEFORE THE FLOP WITH POCKET ACES...[INSERT FAVORABLE FLOP AND OMINOUS TURN CARD HERE]....AND YOU KNOW WHAT COMES ON THE RIVER? THE GODDAMNED CLUB, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT HORSESHIT??" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.........
THIS IS THE FUTURE THAT I CAN SEE, THAT I CAN STRIVE TOWARDS, A FUTURE AS BRIGHT AND BAD BEAT FREE AS CAN BE. FOR NOW, THOUGH, I AM GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE SCUM LIKE YOU DOWNTOWN, AND YOU CAN TELL YOUR (BAD BEAT) STORY TO THE JUDGE BECAUSE, FRANKLY...YOU MAKE ME SICK

-BAD BEAT POLICE /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I clearly thought all-in was best too, it was certainly the safest, and I was hoping for QQ or JJ to call. I just wondered if I made it 3K to go;
1) would they be any more likely to call that than the all-in?
2) am I more likely to get a flop that hits them enough to call my flop bet, or get an A on the flop that freezes me.

[/ QUOTE ]

good questions. I don't know if someone would call 3000 here if they would not call all in. Certainly 3k pot commits the button. CO would be getting 5-2. I think this would come down to a read of the two. Were I CO here, there would be a few thoughts running through my mind: the bet looks suspicious, which probably means strength. It's probably not AA since if you wanted to get tricky with that you could wait until after the flop (i.e. you have no fear of overcards). Also, it's not likely AK as AK plays much better all in.

1: The more I think about it the more I think if they would call 3k, they would call all in, except calling 3k would let the CO get away from his hand post flop or push you off yours if an A comes and you check.

2: If you get one caller and they don't have an ace, an ace comes on the flop just over 23% of the time. If they do have an ace an ace comes on the flop just over 14% of the time. (so if you know he calls with anything and an ace comes, there is a 62% chance he DOES NOT have an ace, but that if is way to big to be of any use here I think.)

An unpaired hand will improve what, about 33% of the time on the flop, more if you have something like suited and/or connecting cards. I think if you want to get tricky smooth calling is the way to go since it gives your opponents the greatest chance to misplay post flop, of course you may end up having to lay down the hand or even busting to a well hidden hand, but that's the risk of avarice