Middle pair good kicker

[Bill Smith]

I struggle with this situation constantly. Comments appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between Hero, Button and UTG.</font>

-----------------------------

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, Hero checks,

Flop: (3.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: (5.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 7.75 BB, between Hero and UTG+1.</font>

[zuluking]

Here's how I would have played it...

Hand #1-Raise pre-flop and raise the flop to try and get head-up. I would have bet the river too.

Hand #2-I would fold on the flop.

[Festus22]

Hand 1: I'd raise PF. Given the action, you got a bet from your immediate right. Raise and try to shutout the field.

Hand 2: I'm not sure what you were doing with your C/R given you're already headsup. That board is pretty drawless so UTG must have gotten a piece of it. Unless he's a folder, I'd just call down unless you improve.

[chief444]

Hand 1 I raise pf, and raise the flop. This changes quite a bit because the pot is bigger and field is smaller so the rest of the play is pretty irrelevant.

Hand 2 I probably lead the flop against two opponents. You likely have the best hand.

[kgrad5]

Hand 1: raise pf, raise the flop, lead the turn, bet the river.

Hand 2: Fold the flop, not much chance to improve if you're behind. Pots too small to be putting in so many bets with a second best hand.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Fold the flop, not much chance to improve if you're behind. Pots too small to be putting in so many bets with a second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
kgrad,

Middle pair Q kicker is a pretty strong hand against only 2 opponents. If there were more opponents I would agree.

[kgrad5]

we dont seem to agree today chief hehe, while i agree that middle pair is a decent hand 3 players you have to be atleast 50% sure you have the best hand here to make this play correct since your putting in exactly half the bets and the fact that he leads out here and hes not even last to act which is where typical party players will bet with nothing to try to steal leads me to believe he has a piece of the board. he also calls the c/r and the turn. i would feel alot more comfortable with the c/r if the bet came from mp2. you also have to take into account that this is an EP limper and if he has ANY poker sense he probably has some cards.

[Bill Smith]

These are pretty much the responses I expected, so it is obvious I misapplied some concepts in these hands.

In hand 1, I really have trouble raising this preflop with 3 people having already limped. Yes, I probably should because I 'should' outplay people postflop in the long run. However, I really have a problem with a check-raise on the flop when I feel like I'm playing for 3 outs - 5 at most. In the collective experience of this forum, is this really a +EV raise? Had the flop been rainbow with say... a 2 instead of a 9, I might be more inclined to agree. (I'm not saying the call is much better, mind you)

Hand 2 was a total misapplication of a mid-pair check-raise. Please beat me with large wooden sticks. However, out of curiosity, if you were UTG+1, do you call down with 88?

[kgrad5]

my advice were for his line of play, im leading the flop as well with middle pair and folding to a raise.. im only checkraising with top pair. everything i said was based on his check and utg+1's bet. i do agree with your comment to lead the flop though chief

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
my advice were for his line of play, im leading the flop as well with middle pair

[/ QUOTE ]
That was my real issue. I'm not crazy about the check/raise either. It's kind of pointless with 2 opponents and a small pot.

[chief444]

Bill,

I don't think limping in hand 1 is horrible. But I do think with decent position and opponents who limp with garbage hands it is definitely +EV. I also just noticed that a good case could be made for betting the river in hand 1, especially if your opponents are passive and wouldn't raise without at least a straight. If you feel you would call a raise anyway then check/calling may be OK.