ATs

[Riposte]

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP1 folds.

River: (7.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between UTG+1, MP3 and Hero.</font>

[bisonbison]

raise preflop. bet the turn.

[katzenmoyer]

I disagree. I think raising pre-flop is incorrect. With so many people in the pot, you won't get anybody out with a raise. Now, by putting more money into the pot pre-flop gives everyone else the right odds to chase their flushes and straights on the flop. Plus, your position is horrible. I like calling in these situations pre-flop and come out firing post flop.

[sublime]

I disagree. I think raising pre-flop is incorrect. With so many people in the pot, you won't get anybody out with a raise. Now, by putting more money into the pot pre-flop gives everyone else the right odds to chase their flushes and straights on the flop. Plus, your position is horrible. I like calling in these situations pre-flop and come out firing post flop.

Your argument is beyond flawed, but I understand your line of thinking to a certain extent.

Have you read SSH yet?

[katzenmoyer]

The only time I would reraise with A high in this situation is with bigslick. Even AQs isn't that strong with this type of position.

Yes, I've read all of the books. Raising with a hand like A10s in this position at these stakes is no good. I can see it being the right play at the higher levels because you won't get as many suckouts.

[sublime]

Yes, I've read all of the books. Raising with a hand like A10s in this position at these stakes is no good. I can see it being the right play at the higher levels because you won't get as many suckouts.

If I were you I would reread the books

[Joe Rees]

Could someone clue me in as to what SSH means? I keep seeing it mentioned here.

[sublime]

"Small Stakes Hold Em"

Its a newly released book by Ed Miller that discusses loose games.

Check out the books and software forum for more info.

Welcome to the forums

[katzenmoyer]

Now I feel I have to defend my poker skills.

1. I've been playing online for a living the past two years
2. The only thing I need to read is my bank account

This forum is hilarious because everyone thinks they are right. There is no right or wrong in this situation. The two main reason I say call rather then raise is because most people that read this forum (micro limits) cannot get away from a hand they raised preflop. You would have to point out in a book where it says to raise pre-flop with A10s in the small blind with so many callers. Even if you did, they are assuming that the player will get away from the hand if an A or 10 does not hit.

I'm all about learning another skill and don't want to come off as a know it all...but you tell me in what book it tells you that and I'll show you another book that says to do the opposite.

[cartoonsoldier]

If a person doesn't know how to play post-flop obviously all advice given for PF play doesn't matter.

I would still raise this PF (first one to raise, not 3-bet).

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no right or wrong in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Raising is right in this position with this many limpers. It has to do with equity, not driving people out.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you did, they are assuming that the player will get away from the hand if an A or 10 does not hit.



[/ QUOTE ]

Again, you are wrong. Just because an A or T doesnt hit, doesnt mean it is an automatic fold.

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to point out in a book where it says to raise pre-flop with A10s in the small blind with so many callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Small Stakes Hold'Em by Sklansky, Malmuth, and Miller, pg 81.

[ QUOTE ]
but you tell me in what book it tells you that and I'll show you another book that says to do the opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me a book that says the opposite that has the weight of experience and knowledge that those 3 authors have.

[sublime]

Thanks Vulture

I have the attention span of a 3yr old. Great response.

[DMBFan23]

lol

[bisonbison]

Katz, when you raise out of the blinds after a bunch of limpers, you are not raising for anything other than to take advantage of the superior value of your hand.

Yes, you're in lousy position, and yes, most flops will miss you, but against the range of hands these limpers will hold, you are giving up a ton of profit by not raising.

It may seem like some of this advice boils down to nothing more than more nuanced mechanical strategies: raise x after y limpers in positions a,b,c and d; but the fact of the matter is preflop play is not very complex, and when your opponents are unskilled, the prime concern has to be pushing your equity edges, not disguising your hand or worrying about what may happen postflop. You raise ATs here for the same reason you raise AA: whatever may happen in the short run, in the long run, you will make more money this way.

[katzenmoyer]

Bison,

Comparing AA vs A10s in the small blind couldn't be more moronic. When a flop of King high comes...AA is an automatic bet..where as your A high is not. The only possible reason you can raise with A10s in the small blind is because you think you have the best hand. With as many limpers as this example...most likely you are behind.

There is no right or wrong in this situation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Wrong. Raising is right in this position with this many limpers. It has to do with equity, not driving people out."


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even if you did, they are assuming that the player will get away from the hand if an A or 10 does not hit.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"Again, you are wrong. Just because an A or T doesnt hit, doesnt mean it is an automatic fold."

Of course it's not an "automatic fold"..but's it's damn close. Any flop that doesn't have your suit...some kind of gutshot with overcards is a fold. So...80% of the time it will be a fold.

Hahaha. What equity are you talking about? Most likely..you don't have the best hand...expecially not a multiway pot. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You keep raising with A10s from EP and I'll keep dragging pots from you.

but you tell me in what book it tells you that and I'll show you another book that says to do the opposite.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Show me a book that says the opposite that has the weight of experience and knowledge that those 3 authors have.

Hahahha! Skalanski himself talks about not raising a pot to give other people pot odds. In ALL of his books! This is basic poker big guy.

Bison, Riposte's post asked for advise. Your response was not only questionable..but you gave NO explaination of what you were talking about. Just to say "raise pre-flop..bet the turn" doesn't help anybody. Also, Sublime...I hope you don't play on party with the same name you post on here. My notes on you say.."weak tight" and I've won $64,000 in the past year while playing on party's low limit games part time!. I'm sure that's you though..because everyone that posts on this website is a world class player. Hahaha.

Just a note for people that have not are just reading these posts and think these players know what they are talking about:

I haven't met one twoplustwo'er in the past 4 years that has made a living off of poker. I saw a couple in Vegas during the WSOP, but they all had jobs. Most are all amatures that think because they have read some books, they know how to play poker. I'm sorry to tell you..that most are fakes and think they are way better then they actually are. I'm sure that some people that post on here are actually winners...but i'm guessing it's about 20% or so. This site is good for learning...but only if the people that are giving the advice are accurate and explain their reasons in detail.

[Brian]

Get off these forums, troll.

-Brian

[EDIT]: Stop feeding the troll. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bisonbison]

Comparing AA vs A10s in the small blind couldn't be more moronic.

Oh, okay then. Would you raise AKs here? AQs? AJs? Why?

The only possible reason you can raise with A10s in the small blind is because you think you have the best hand. With as many limpers as this example...most likely you are behind.

To what? Unrelated hands. The odds that you are dominated are very small. You have a premium hand that will win far more than its share.

Bison, Riposte's post asked for advise. Your response was not only questionable..but you gave NO explaination of what you were talking about. Just to say "raise pre-flop..bet the turn" doesn't help anybody.

It does help. It helps him get it right. Frankly, if I had to explain my reasoning in every single reply I made, I wouldn't reply to anything (which I'm sure would please some people). I came here first learn and then to help teach, but some decisions are so clearly +EV that they aren't really up for debate. But, hey, no one has to take my advice.

Also, Sublime...I hope you don't play on party with the same name you post on here. My notes on you say.."weak tight" and I've won more then $23,000 in the past year while playing on party. I'm sure that's you though..because everyone that post's on this website is a world class player. Hahaha.

and no one really has to speculate as to why you descend to personal attacks when your "pro advice" is ignored.

Just a note for people that have not are just reading these posts and think these players know what they are talking about: I haven't met one twoplustwo'er in the past 4 years that has made a living off of poker. I saw a couple in Vegas during the WSOP, but they all had jobs. Most are all amatures that think because they have read some books, they know how to play poker. I'm sorry to tell you..that most are fakes and think they are way better then they actually are. I'm sure that some people that post on here are actually winners...but i'm guessing it's about 20% or so.

Well, you're the expert.

This site is good for learning...but only if the people that are giving the advise are accurate and explain their reasons in detail.

You seem to have missed that part of the thread. Well played, champ.

[cartoonsoldier]

I don't understand why do you think ATs is behind with "these many limpers" in the hand. If I look at the normal hands played by "these limpers" at .05/.10 on PS than they are anything from K2o to TJo to A6o to 58s. Are you behind these hands? Or do you just assume you are behind PF to the limpers and as a result just call. A normal fish even likes to raise AJ-AK PF.

And yeah, just because people argue your "expert advice" there is no need to personally attack them. Also, nowhere does it say you need to "earn a living playing poker" to be a good poker player. Oh wait...isn't Miller a 2+2er...what about Raymer...hmm...nevermind.

edit: forgot to ask, whats your PP or PS handle? Maybe I can drop by and learn some stuff from you.

[katzenmoyer]

Bison,

Man..I feel sorry for you dude. You replied within 5 minutes of my post. While you were scrolling the twoplustwo forum looking to give more bad advice..I was winning $700. This is why most pros do NOT post on poker forums. It's because WANNABE's like yourself spend their whole lives trying to BELONG into a fraternity of other losers. You be popular, I'll be rich. Sounds like a good trade off to me. Good luck to you and the other people that have posted more then 300 times at this site! I have a suggestion....GO OUTSIDE!

[cartoonsoldier]

Wow man...thats some awesome BB/min rate.

[katzenmoyer]

That's how the REAL professionals do it. Good Luck Cartoon. If you want to contact me, my email address is....youwishyoucouldmake70Kinonlinepokerayear@pos t2500timesattwoplustwowillmakeyoupopularinyourownm ind.com

[cartoonsoldier]

I tried e-mailing you but it doesn't work... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[katzenmoyer]

keep trying.

[cartoonsoldier]

I want to say the same to you...

"keep trying"

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Posting bad advice, personal attacks and ridiculous self glorification all at once is a quick way to get your posts routinely scoffed at.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, by putting more money into the pot pre-flop gives everyone else the right odds to chase their flushes and straights on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying you wouldn't raise AA because you're building too big of a pot and thus will get sucked out on?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
The only possible reason you can raise with A10s in the small blind is because you think you have the best hand. With as many limpers as this example...most likely you are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure?

[ QUOTE ]
Most likely..you don't have the best hand...expecially not a multiway pot. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure?

[katzenmoyer]

Gaining popularity is not the goal. If I wanted to be popular..I'd have over 2500 posts within 9 months of being a member. Then, my cyber friends will email me for advice. Then I'd feel better about myself. Then, I'd have a reason for living.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising with a hand like A10s in this position at these stakes is no good. I can see it being the right play at the higher levels because you won't get as many suckouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just plain ridiculous. These stakes are PERFECT for raising ATs in this spot. Higher tough limit games are the WORST place to raise ATs in this spot. Do you see why?

And what does getting sucked out on have anything to do with it?

[thirddan]

it seems like your goal is to belittle posters like bison who have helped manyh people improve...thanks for that, you have made these boards much better...

you may very well be a successful player, however, from your winning 700 in an hour or whatever, i doubt that you play micro limits, and may not understand why raising ATs/AJs/KJs/KQs from the blinds is correct in super loose/passive games with very poor players...

[katzenmoyer]

thirddan,

How has Bison improved players? He is giving the original poster questionable advice without any explanation. The reason I post on the micro limits is to help people move up to the higher limits. Once again, raising with A10s in the small blind with 6-8 limpers is incorrect in a micro limit game. I know this. I remember playing these limits for a year. I didn't move up limits by playing this aggressive. IMO, this is over aggressive and causes too many mistakes post flop. I have no problem with raising this hand on a 30/60 table in Vegas. Either way, it's not a cut and dry situation. Bison made it seem like the poster was totally incorrect by simply calling from the small blind. That is why I care so much. It is not an easy raise situation.

[cartoonsoldier]

I again ask - why do you think he is behing with ATs against the other limpers?

[katzenmoyer]

He is behind because of his position. Let's assume he has the best hand...which is very questionable...his position is horrible. At this level, most people will come out betting after a raise even if they miss the flop. This is my entire arguement. People at this level make too many mistakes after raising pre-flop. I'm just saying that you don't have to put in 4-6 bets because you think you have the best hand pre-flop. This is the lesson micro-limit players should learn.

[cartoonsoldier]

He is only behind to AJ-AK and other decent PPs which most micro-limit players raise PF. And oh yeah, if the other people want to bet into me when I hit the flop - good, he just has to make this play to have the hand profitable in the long run.

I really don't understand - at all, why you shouldn't put in more bets PF if you think/have the best hand? Get your money in when you are the favourite to win.

Should I also call with AA, so I don't make the pot big enough for flush draws to call on later streets?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
At this level, most people will come out betting after a raise even if they miss the flop. This is my entire arguement. People at this level make too many mistakes after raising pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming our hero in this hand is a total moron that can't play postflop, which may be true for typical microplayers, but thats not true for most of our micro posters here at 2+2.

[thirddan]

i wouldn't mind some explanation as to why you would rather raise this at a 30/60 game against thinking/experienced (at least decent) players. I think that the effects of being out of position would be more against players that will punish you postflop, but this is unlikely against typical passive micro players. Also, like Chris said, you are making it seem like the Hero will go off for 3/4 bets postflop with nothing when he misses, our Hero most likely is not a moron, posters here, even the newer ones, play much better than a typical micro player...

[katzenmoyer]

haha. Getting tag teamed here. OK..i'll play along. Most of the micro players are morons..regardless if they post on this site or not. Plain and simple. They just don't know any better and they get bad advice when they seek it. Secondly, cartoon, you are comparing AA with ATs again. ATs is pretty strong..don't get me wrong...but with 7 limpers...your chances of winning are very slim. AA isn't much better...but it's worth a raise pre-flop..unlike A10s.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't mind some explanation as to why you would rather raise this at a 30/60 game against thinking/experienced (at least decent) players. I think that the effects of being out of position would be more against players that will punish you postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Dan, as I said in my other post, microlimits is the perfect spot to raise ATs in this spot, while upper limits with tougher players is the worst spot to raise ATs.

[katzenmoyer]

Once again...micro players are still learning. Regardless if they post on a poker forum...they are very green and will make many mistakes. The most common...from EP with a raise preflop.

You can raise this hand in a 30/60 game because pros will give you credit for AA, KK, QQ..in this situation. If they have a read on you....then it's a different story. But let's just assume that you just got to the table or they don't have a read on you. You'll find most people will lay this down after a pre-flop raise from EP.

[thirddan]

"AA isn't much better"

Huh?

I don't want it to seem like we are attacking you, that is not the purpose. You may be a very good player, but you are not even humoring the possibility that raising ATs here could be more profitable in the long run than merely completing and i think you are wrong. ATs is a far superior hand than most players will play at these levels, take advantage by punishing them for playing their junk hands.

[cartoonsoldier]

Against the "morons" of microlimit, you chances of winning with ATs against 7-8 limpers are pretty good IMO considering the hands others play at this level.

[thirddan]

I understand and agree with you that raising here is correct, while it may not be at a higher limit game against better opponents.

At a higher limit players probably are not limping with the kind of random junk that is played at the micros, so your ATs does not have the same edge it does over random crap.

[katzenmoyer]

Well guys..we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Seems like I'm part of the minority here and won't win this discussion. I just hope other micro players can learn from our discussions and make their own mind up. Hopefully, one newbie can learn and became better just like I have. Hopefully someone lurking in these micro forums will take their game to new levels and turn pro one day.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the micro players are morons..regardless if they post on this site or not. Plain and simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would venture to say that 2+2 has some of the best limit poker players in the entire poker playing population. no exaggeration.

[ QUOTE ]
but with 7 limpers...your chances of winning are very slim. AA isn't much better...but it's worth a raise pre-flop..unlike A10s.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's evident you have zero concept of pot equity.

[katzenmoyer]

Chris..my friend...your quote about the twoplustwo poker player nation is very naive. Is this why you have 1400 posts? Because you actually think that most 2+2er's are winners? Man..come back to reality. How many people do you know PERSONALLY win constantly and post on this site? One? Maybe two? It's easy to say you win on a poker forum, but a little harder to prove it in real life.

I have a good friend who lurks around on this site and pointed out some of the "good" players on the 15/30 tables on party. We looked at my notes on these "good" players and they read stuff like.."over aggressive" and "calls too many bets post flop..will call you down with second pair"..etc. I'd rethink your comment about this forum or any other poker forum on the net.

[sin808]

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

&lt;chant&gt;troll troll go away&lt;/chant&gt;

[chief444]

What Bison said and neither pf or the turn is really close at all here.

No other comments necessary on this one.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Hahahha! Skalanski himself talks about not raising a pot to give other people pot odds. In ALL of his books! This is basic poker big guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was from a book written on the premise that you are playing in a game with decent players, that dont play too many hands, and respect raises. That most assuredly doesnt apply to these microlimit games. Why dont you PM Sklansky and see if he agrees with the book that he helped co-author (the one I referenced, Small Stakes Hold'em).

[ QUOTE ]
I have a good friend who lurks around on this site and pointed out some of the "good" players on the 15/30 tables on party. We looked at my notes on these "good" players and they read stuff like.."over aggressive" and "calls too many bets post flop..will call you down with second pair"..etc

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if its in your notes it must be true.
[ QUOTE ]
will call you down with second pair

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess that is always wrong too.

Chris

PS Sorry for feeding the trolls guys.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
It's easy to say you win on a poker forum, but a little harder to prove it in real life.


[/ QUOTE ]

lmao.

[kiemo]

While you guys were 'debating' in this thread I won $17000 playing .05/.10 at Stars.

Suckers!

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
At this level, most people will come out betting after a raise even if they miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this level, most players are also playing 75s in EP and calling raises with KTo. Just becasue most players make stupid mistakes doesn't mean a person posting a hand on 2+2 is going to make the same mistake.

Even if he does bet the flop when he wiffs completely, that doesn't make the preflop raise incorrect. It just means he needs to avoid making the flop mistake. When I finally learned there is no shame in raising preflop and check-folding the flop when the situation called for it my game got a lot better.

If you aren't raising ATs here what other hands are you not raising ... KQs, JJ?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
ATs is pretty strong..don't get me wrong...but with 7 limpers...your chances of winning are very slim. AA isn't much better...but it's worth a raise pre-flop..unlike A10s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any credibility you may have had in my mind just got erased by this statement.

[Transference]

Time for the standard curse on anyone who now keeps this currently substanceless thread going. Anyone who says that 2+2 vets don't exhibit remarkable restraint and patience can read this thread, very well done gentlemen, now let it die.

About the only thing left is to do the math but no doubt our brilliant friend has skills which render trivial probability useless.

May any other posters to this thread loose all but 3 hairs on their head and develop an expansive mid section.

[cold_cash]

I would just like to say that I've never been more proud of myself, nor more thankful for the energy I've saved, by fighting the temptation to attempt a reasonable, logical conversation with this dope.

(Not you Nottom, even though I'm replying to your post. Heh.)

[spamuell]

From gocee (http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm), the pot equity of ATs against 7 players is 18.9%. This is over a third more than the 12.5% which is your "fair share" of pot equity against 7 opponents.

Just give up.

[siccjay]

This guy has the typical "I'm too good to beat Low Limits" mentality. He won't raise A10s because he gets sucked out on too much.

You are sad if you think most people on these forums aren't winning poker players. I'm a winning player and I suck compared to a lot of the people that post here.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
and I've won $64,000 in the past year while playing on party's low limit games part time!.


[/ QUOTE ]

$64,000 in low limits?? Thats a lot of poker. Thats very roughly about 2BBs an hour at 2/4 playing 24 hours a day for the past year. Aren't you tired?

How come when Bison quoted you it said $23,000? Did you make $40,000 since you made this post?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
How come when Bison quoted you it said $23,000? Did you make $40,000 since you made this post?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is he was playing a 20/40,000 game, completed AA from the SB and the BB looked at him and folded.