SSH Hand - help is on the way!

[Luv2DriveTT]

11:1 pot odds on the flop, I'll be liberal by taking 3 outs for the Ace, 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush draw and 1.5 outs for the backdoor straight draws on the flop - giving me 7:1 against - good enough to call one bet. Along comes my Ace on the turn, but it could be counterfitted by my poor kicker. I give myself 4 outs here (discounting one of the Aces just in case someone holds it and I am drawing dead with my bad kick). Against the rules I raised against MP3's bet fully prepared to fold if he 3-bets the turn. River comes... I'm pretty sure I'm beat, but Miller says Value Bet when a scare card comes. I did and got raised (ugh!). Should I call or cap or fold?
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls.

River: (13.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.50 BB, between MP3, Button and Hero.</font>

In da club /images/graemlins/club.gif

[rjc199]

call this river raise. He has something like AQ, KQ, or KK.

Against these hands you are ahead most of the time. Logic would say to raise, but I'm too weak to advocate that.

[btspider]

I'll be liberal by taking 3 outs for the Ace

This statement really stands out. You are being a bit too optimistic preflop and on the flop. Its good to be confident in your postflop skills, but you are setting yourself up for trouble by discounting an MP3 PF raise. I'd fold PF here. The flush and wheel potential is just not worth enough to turn this into a PF call.

[jediael]

You do not have a backdoor straight draw on the Flop at all!
A backdoor straight draw is 3 connected cards. What you have would be called something like backdoor gutshot straight draw which, well, counts at most like 0.5 outs? So you would have something like 5 effective outs. I think most likely MP3 has a pocket pair. So your flop call is correct.
- So when the Ace comes, your raise on the turn is fine.
- Your call on the River is also fine. It seems to me that the button has irrationally stayed in with a low pair plus a backdoor flush draw and has made his flush. This doesnt mean you should fold though, since the pot is extremely large.

[Jimbobobb]

There's no flush on board.

On the flop you're getting 13:1 on your call - you can call with as little as 4 outs, and you have those.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
You do not have a backdoor straight draw on the Flop at all!
A backdoor straight draw is 3 connected cards. What you have would be called something like backdoor gutshot straight draw which, well, counts at most like 0.5 outs? So you would have something like 5 effective outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I remember correctly, according to Ed Miller's SSH this would qualify as hidden outs for the Backdoor Straight - in TWO directions, therefore I belive this qualifies (on the flop only of course) as 1.5 outs for the combined package.

2xx56 and x56x8x

The same thing goes for the flush, two cards to draw still while I'm at the flop which will happen around 1.5% of the time, therefore 1.5 outs for the flush draw (drawing a heart on the turn, and redrawing another heart on the river - Jimbobobb read SSHE, this verifys the backdoor draw).



Preflop Ace Suited in my position I think I correctly called the raise (Miller seems to reccomend playing suited cards on the button &amp; in the blinds for the draw, an Ace can't hurt when it's suited). But I think I ignored MP3's raise incorrectly (as btspider said) when I bet on the river - I should have checked and called, folding if the Button raises MP3's bet.

But from the results I was beat all along. My kicker wouldn't stand up against MP3's AJo (this guy had no business staying around to the turn, but he did anyway), but more surprising was the button's trips. I would have never guessed with his passive play!

Results:
Hero shows 5h Ah (one pair, aces).
MP3 shows As Jc (one pair, aces).
Button shows 8c 8d (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Button wins 19.50 BB.

[DMBFan23]

I think MP3 can see the turn...he was the Pre flop raiser, and he got checked to on the flop, and everyone called his bet. seems standard.

[btspider]

But from the results I was beat all along. My kicker wouldn't stand up against MP3's AJo (this guy had no business staying around to the turn, but he did anyway)

MP3 should definitely bet that total rainbow rag flop. He has two overcards, he can buy the button, he can buy a free river card when he misses (and is called everywhere), he can disguise his hand when he hits.

Other than possibly 3-betting the turn, MP3 played this hand just fine.