I folded QQ before the flop

[Texas Pete]

I guess the very first hand of a tourney qualifies as a place not to take big chances too early.
Like I need this crap first thing in the morning...
Anyway, went on to win 2nd.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t5 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t1000.00)
Hero (t1000.00)
BB (t1000.00)
UTG (t1000.00)
UTG+1 (t1000.00)
UTG+2 (t1000.00)
MP1 (t1000.00)
MP2 (t1000.00)
MP3 (t1000.00)
CO (t1000.00)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of t5.
UTG calls t10, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t30</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t150</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero (poster) folds, BB folds, UTG calls t140, UTG+1 calls t120.

Flop: (t465) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets t60</font>, UTG+1 calls t60, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises to t850</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: t1435
<font color="green">Main Pot: t645 (t645), won by UTG+2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t790 (t790), returned to UTG+2.</font>

[Phill S]

i hope this is a joke post.

you folded probably the best hand that was out there, on the first hand.

let me tell you why this is wrong.

if you win, you at least double though, looking at the hand it may be a triple through.

if you lose, you start another one imediately.

sure, you may be behind, but what if your not.

i woulda be taking this chance in a second, and i cant believe you didnt

Phill

[Texas Pete]

No, it's not a joke, it was really the first hand, and I really folded after 2 raises ahead of me. I say at least one of em has AA-TT or AK preflop, and this thing is headed all-in (which is where it went), and I have a 50/50 chance with one caller or worse with two. No need for that on the first hand. Like I said, I won 2nd. A good player doesn't want to take chances like that. But, i'm willing to be educated if I must. Your argument does not take into account the probability of winning, vs. the probability of finishing ITM when folding.

[BradleyT]

I don't think I would fold pre-flop. You'll be up against something other than AA or KK or AK more often than you are against them.

If an ace or king pops up on the flop I slow down otherwise I'll push the flop.

Last night in a SnG two people got all in preflop on first hand. JJ vs. A6s. JJ raised 3xBB, A6 raised, JJ pushed, A6 called. I see hands like that all the time to be honest. I saw KJs and AQo get it all in preflop on 2nd hand in the next SnG I played.

Note this is for $20 and under SnG's. At higher level you're probably right in folding.

[Phill S]

im assuming you dont know what he had because he didnt show.

its hard to say what the correct move was. its true you got second, maybe you could of gotton first if you doubled on that first hand.

looking it over, id say AK is unlikely, unless UTG+2 has a death wish, that was a nice flop. its likely UTG has a big ace (AT with a fair enough flop raise, AK for a fair enough bluff). UTG+2 prolly has a pocket pair.

now its likely its anything from TT to AA. however you couldnt get that close to a read on hand one preflop.

the reason i push is
a, there are so many hands that will call that you have beaten
b, so what if you lose, youve put no effort into the game so far.

personally id prefer to go out hand one that on the bubble.

now you got second, and thats fair enough, but you couldnt be certain of anything at the time beyond the fact that on hand one you got a monster. the only two hands you dread is AA and KK.

was it the right play, we'll never know, but it was a questionable play in my opinion.

itd be nice to get opinions from others, but like i say, its an easy push. 1 stack, 1 chance, 1 more in 5 minutes if you lose.

Phill

[Navers]

[ QUOTE ]
A good player doesn't want to take chances like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The chances that you have the best pair are good, why wouldn't you want to take this chance? It's only +EV, I don't understand what you mean by good players dont take chances. This isn't the middle of a tournament where you could be up against AK with your QQ and you're a big stack up against another, this is early in the tournament where he's much more like to have a worse hand than not.

[Texas Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A good player doesn't want to take chances like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The chances that you have the best pair are good, why wouldn't you want to take this chance? It's only +EV, I don't understand what you mean by good players dont take chances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too big a chance too early on, or marginal bets, even if they have a +EV. Not "don't take chances" = weak tight.
The calling arguments rely on crappy players. If you have decent players, then I fail to see how a 3BB raise then reraise, both from very early position, means QQ is a favorite. It's $20+2 on Paradise which is not pros, but not too shabby players either. By the way, he showed. He had QQ! I laughed.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
The calling arguments rely on crappy players. If you have decent players, then I fail to see how a 3BB raise then reraise, both from very early position, means QQ is a favorite. It's $20+2 on Paradise which is not pros, but not too shabby players either.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 30+3 at Party, I auto-all in and expect to be shown A6s 98% of the time.

[zephyr]

I agree with Phil S. Definetly a push preflop, if both players fold you've increased your stack by ~20%, if you're called you likely have the best hand.

You can't make much of a read on UTG+1, but I'd be willing to bet that you have him dominated (smaller pair or AQs-A2s). UTG+2 could have a wide range of hands, most of which you have beat.

For me QQ is my cutoff hands for making pushes in situations like this. I'd probably just call with JJ and hope for a set or undercards on the flop. The times that you run into AA or KK, are just some of those situations that you have to accept in these tourneys.

Based on the flop action I'd put UTG+2 on JJ, possibly 99 or 88, and maybe A10. It doesn't seem likely that he has KK or AA, or 1010 as there are few draws on board and he'd probably play those hands a touch slower. His all-in bet screams to me that his hand is likely the best at the time, but is vulnerable (likely to overcards, as there are no real draws here).

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[Texas Pete]

Well, I knew if I went down to AA or KK, or worse yet A2s on the opening hand, i'd basically put my forehead through the freakin' monitor. And it's not a flat screen either. So perhaps I folded to avoid pain. Adding the monitor replacement cost into the mix made it an easy fold. I suppose if i'd made it through my first cup of coffee already I would call. Who knows.

[stupidsucker]

There are good times to fold QQ. This is not one of them IMO. You either need to push or throw in a raise to see if someone else pushes.

I personaly hate QQ. Its harder to get away from then JJ. JJ I dont mind mucking again and again, but QQ is only dominated by 2 hands and a 50% with 1. So three hands out there give QQ much trouble at all.

Id have to say that a push is in order. If you lose then you wasted absolutly no time at all. Its very likely that one of these 2 people has AK, and they would be wrong to call you once you push.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I knew if I went down to AA or KK, or worse yet A2s on the opening hand, i'd basically put my forehead through the freakin' monitor.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's silly. If you go out on the opening hand, you have lost $22, not your limbs, not your reputation, not your pets, just $22. There is no shame in making the right play and losing.

You know why people will call you down with bottom pair on an ace-high board? I'm not sure, but I think they overemphasize how much it hurts to get bluffed off the best hand. This overemphasis is a big weakness that causes horrible mistakes. Fearing a loss on the first hand is a similar weakness.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I knew if I went down to AA or KK, or worse yet A2s on the opening hand, i'd basically put my forehead through the freakin' monitor. And it's not a flat screen either. So perhaps I folded to avoid pain. Adding the monitor replacement cost into the mix made it an easy fold. I suppose if i'd made it through my first cup of coffee already I would call. Who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, first off, he showed QQ, therefor youd have pushed off the third guy and split. so by definition you made the wrong play. as according to the fundamental theory of poker.

must remember to re-read the big yellow bible.

anyhow, as you said, you would of played it differently if youd of had your coffee. WHAT!!!

let me emphasise it, WHAT!!!, if your playing in a game where your not mentally or physically prepared for it no wonder you made a cold hard wrong decision.

maybe you need to prep for your games a little harder.

and if you would even in jest consider nutting your monitor after a bad beat, perhaps you need a less stressful past-time, such as heraldy, making model planes or learning the violin.

a sarcy and entirely un-caffeined Phill

[mackthefork]

I push but for these reasons

1) The blinds are 5/10
2) His overbet to me indicates a weaker PP than QQ
3) I doubt AA KK AK for the reason given above

Some people here dismiss the chances of running into AA or KK too easily, at a full table (9 handed) you have around a 7.8% of running into one of these hands when holding QQ, in addition you stand a 10.45% of running into AKs or AKo. These odds are small, however not inconsequential, ignore it at your peril in my opinion.

Here I feel there was a good chance he had a vulnerable pair as he overbet so I would push over the top.

Regards Mack

[PrayingMantis]

Folding makes sense here only if one of them shows you AA or KK. Since it's not possible to see what other people hold when you play on-line (unless you have some way to hack Paradise), folding is not an option.

[Kaz The Original]

First let me say, I like it.
Second, against your crowd, I wouldn't do it.
Third, if it's 10-10 and above there are only 6 combinations of hands he can beat (JJ 6 ways) and 21? ways he is beat. On the flop of course.

[Phill S]

its true, i put the guy on pocket pair TT to AA. this was based on how he bet the flop.

just on the preflop action, you cant be anywhere that specific, AJ or even AT become possibles, along with a pocket pair (ive seen it done with em all but for argument lets say snowmen or over) and most aces, especially if it has a pretty picture next to it.

therfor, preflop, you gotta assume its your pot.

Phill

[JayCo]

[ QUOTE ]
I push but for these reasons

1) The blinds are 5/10
2) His overbet to me indicates a weaker PP than QQ
3) I doubt AA KK AK for the reason given above

Some people here dismiss the chances of running into AA or KK too easily, at a full table (9 handed) you have around a 7.8% of running into one of these hands when holding QQ, in addition you stand a 10.45% of running into AKs or AKo. Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I agree. At least on Party low-limit SNGs, I think people like to be "sneakier" with AA or KK and will often tend to raise or re-raise a smaller amount in order to try to ensure at least 1 caller. Sometimes it seems like they'd rather have AA cracked than just pick up the blinds or a tiny pot.

Mack- where did you get those %s? Anyone know of a source / table online that has a "Against X players, you have a Y% chance of running into hand Z". I have TwoDimes Showdown web calculator (http://www.twodimes.net/poker/) running whenever I play a SNG, but haven't found another good hand stats page.

Thanks