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joker122

08-08-2004, 02:40 PM

Hand 1: I feel like I left some bets on the table here. Maybe CR the flop?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP raises, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Hand 2: I thought this was a pretty good line...I don't know what I would do with a blank river...raise i suppose.
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls,

Flop: (4.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.20 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 02:59 PM

Hand 1: Definitely check raise the flop. The bet should be coming from two to your left, one to your left if you are lucky. I like C/Ring here to charge any big clubs for the draw while trapping the people between the leader and you for another bet.

Hand 2: Have to raise earlier. I probably raise the flop, though I may wait until the turn to raise. You should not worry too much about your opponent having a king. If you are worried, raise the flop and see what he sais. If you wait until the turn, you may trap him for some extra bets, but you may trap yourself too. Also there is a flush draw out, make him pay if he has two /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I like playing this fast post flop. On the turn you pick up the nut flush draw, which improves your hand greatly if you are up against a K. It makes a flush for your opponent sometimes, but usually it does not.

joker122

08-08-2004, 03:09 PM

One thing that I think you are misunderstanding is the concept of "charging" flush draws. For a good discussion read For everyone who wants to "charge the flush draws" PLEASE READ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459928&Fo rum=All_Forums&Words=charging%20flush%20draws&Sear chpage=0&Limit=200&Main=459301&Search=true&where=b odysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y& olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post459928) by Ed Miller. It's a really important concept, and if you're still thinking about drawing hands the way you appear to be I really think you should take the time to read it.

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I think you are misunderstanding is the concept of "charging" flush draws. For a good discussion read For everyone who wants to "charge the flush draws" PLEASE READ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=459928&Fo rum=All_Forums&Words=charging%20flush%20draws&Sear chpage=0&Limit=200&Main=459301&Search=true&where=b odysub&Name=43&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y& olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post459928) by Ed Miller. It's a really important concept, and if you're still thinking about drawing hands the way you appear to be I really think you should take the time to read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I reccomend the c/r here because I think you have the best hand and should get the most money in the pot. If there is a big club, they will pay now and on the turn, so start building the pot now. The abosolute worst thing that could happen is if you check call, and fail to get a bet on the turn in an attempt to check raise.

I think betting out here cost you because you showed no strenght pre flop, but betting into the raiser and a big field post flop shows a great deal of strengh, at least the K /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Also, note that anyone holding a big club only has 6 clean outs, and is therefore getting a much worse price than they may think.

edit fixed a poor word choice and a brain fart

joker122

08-08-2004, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I reccomend the c/r here because I think you have the best hand and should get the most money in the pot. If there is a big club, they will pay now and on the turn, so start building the pot now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this.

However, you repeated the phrase "charge the flush draws" several times in your post and it just made me cringe. I'm honestly not trying to be condescending here, but read that Ed Miller post and get back to me. It really is important.

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I reccomend the c/r here because I think you have the best hand and should get the most money in the pot. If there is a big club, they will pay now and on the turn, so start building the pot now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this.

However, you repeated the phrase "charge the flush draws" several times in your post and it just made me cringe. I'm honestly not trying to be condescending here, but read that Ed Miller post and get back to me. It really is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it and he is talking about a completely different situation. He is (I think) talking about check raising in the attempt to get the flush draw holder into making a FToP error. At any rate he seems to be talking about this with far inferior holdings to a flopped flush. When I say "charge the flush draws" I mean just that. I don't care if they are getting odds or not to call, but I want them putting money in the pot when I have greater pot equity. I want to charge them as much as possible because it increases my expectation. If they incorrectly fold, so much the better, but I certainly want to make sure they put in the maximum amount possible. If you don't like the phrase "Charging" I will rephrase it to "check raise to maximize expectation."

joker122

08-08-2004, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read it and he is talking about a completely different situation. He is (I think) talking about check raising in the attempt to get the flush draw holder into making a FToP error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Er...read it again.

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 04:13 PM

joker122

08-08-2004, 04:20 PM

I have a question for you. Let's say you limp UTG with 22 in a full ring game. You get 2 callers behind you, the SB fold and the BB checks. The flop is:
K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The BB bets. What's your action and why?

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 05:43 PM

It depends. With no additional information, I bet out for the following reasons:

I cannot be sure this hand will be bet if I check. In fact, I am guessing there is a strong chance it wont with the timid pre flop play.

I will get action from anyone with a K, 2p, 2 hearts, an overpair, and some hands of dubious value. (I have to believe with that many limpers the game is pretty soft. I must be soft because either I'm a chump for limping utg with 22 or I know there is a good chance that I will get a couple limpers and no raises.)

Even with redraws, giving a free card to 2 hearts is a disaster. I have almost definitely the best hand in a loose passive game, driving is the way to go.

I just got back from some errands and was thinking about what Ed Miller wrote. I think he was referring to (at least) two specific misconceptions.

First, the idea that the amount of money flush draw puts in is important as an absolute value, when in fact it is only the odds on the money that matters.

Second, the idea that if you are behind in the, but ahead of a flush draw, it is right to "charge" the fush draw. In this case, you are also drawing and charging yourself as well as the flush draw.

It would take a lot to convince me that if you have a plorality of pot equity you should not charge everyone else to play. (Barring of course a contrived example where bank roll comes into play, such as in a tournament.) If you have the best of it, get the most money you can into the pot by whatever betting pattern necessary. I have no qualms with calling this charging your opponents.

joker122

08-08-2004, 06:12 PM

It depends. With no additional information, I bet out for the following reasons:

Actually, the scenario had BB leading the flop. You're next to act UTG.

fnord_too

08-08-2004, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It depends. With no additional information, I bet out for the following reasons:

Actually, the scenario had BB leading the flop. You're next to act UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! That is a much more interesting choice. So, 5.5 sb in the pot, 2 to follow... hmmmmm.

If I check and everyone calls, there will be 4.25BB in the pot on the turn. I think I smooth call here. Then on the turn I raise (assuming a bet in front) if the flush does not come and I do not boat up giving any flush draw a chance to make an error by calling. If the flush does not come but the board pairs and it is led, I call for the overcalls. If the flush comes and I don't boat, I call, and call a raise and try to hit one of my 10 outs. I am sure to get paid off by a flush if I hit my boat. If the flush comes and my boat comes, (i.e. 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) I call a bet or open if checked to with the intent of reraising when it gets back to me. (If someone behind me has the flush they raise, if not, i want the overcalls since I am not too affraid of giving a free card here. If I am beat by 7's full, so be it.)

I THINK I can get more money into the pot by calling. I'm not positive raising isn't a better alternative, it may be, but my initial thought is to trap here.

chio

08-09-2004, 11:53 AM

both hands i like

hand 1, i like the bet on the flop, you have a great opportunity to 3bet someone who will raise you with a lesser hand, any A, any high club, etc