Party versus Stars (structure)

[mrbaseball]

I have been playing mostly at Stars because I prefer the starting 1500 vs the starting 1000 at Party. But it's an illusion. Party is much better.

I got pretty deep into the $10 rebuy yesterday (12th) when it really dawned on me! These blinds (and antes!) were going up way too fast. Even with 300K plus and all the extra rebuy chips in the game you could really only play one hand and it was do or die basically.

So I crunched some numbers looking at Party structure versus Stars. Even with only 1000 starting chips Party starts lower, goes up slower, doesn't have antes, and has 10 players tables making the blinds come slower.

Assuming 15 hands per round and not playing a hand and folding all of your blinds you would be out in mid level 6 on Stars but you would last to mid level 7 on Party. Plus if you add up all the blinds (and antes!) you would pay though level 15 the difference is astounding!

Once again assuming 15 hands per round through 15 rounds you would pay 22875 in blinds on Party compared to Stars where you will pay 86460 in blinds and antes. About 3.8 times more on Stars than Party. Starting with 1.5 times more chips just doesn't make up for that!

Maybe I have too much time on my hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm sure many of you already figured this out. Just found it toi be an eye opener.

[donny5k]

Are you comparing this to a partypoker rebuy? With the inflation of chip stacks due to rebuys, the blinds have to go up faster in a rebuy tournament or it will last 2 days.

[mrbaseball]

Rebuys use the same structure normal tournaments do. Except for the bigger events ($200+) which have longer (better) structures.

In my number crunching I compared a normal Party tournament to a normal Stars tournament structure.

[Ghazban]

Very interesting read! I'd be interested in seeing how other sites stack up in this respect, too, if anybody has the time and inclination to crunch the numbers.

[ilya]

I agree, Party has the best structure for MTTs of all the sites I know, including Stars. If Party had rebuys, they would be the undisputed champion imo.
The Stars structure is still better for SnGs, though, since they raise blinds by time rather than # of hands. Much more play once it's short-handed, only a little less when everyone's still around.

[kdotsky]

What about Ultimate Bet? It seems like their blinds go up pretty slow... BTW Pacific has got to be the worst, their blinds go up every 10 minutes and in large increments.

[Ghazban]

UB doesn't use the same structure for every tournament. I don't know how many different versions they have but I know that sometimes antes are introduced and sometimes they aren't. Also, the 500+30 Sunday events start with 2000 chips instead of the usual 1000.

[mrbaseball]

On UB's website it shows 12 minute levels where Stars and Party are 15 minute levels. I didn't look to see the increments are though. With 12 minute levels I don't think it can compete.

Paradise has (I think?) the same structure as Stars but they have very few 15 minute level tournys with most of them in the 6, 10, and 12 minute range greatly increasing the crapshootedness of them.

[mbpoker]

A simple way to compare is to look at tournaments with the same number of entrants and see how long they lasted. By your logic Party's tourneys should last much longer but they don't. Besides not having antes in No Limit tournaments is simply wrong.

[blendedsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
Besides not having antes in No Limit tournaments is simply wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do u say this?

[mrbaseball]

That's not a good way to compare at all? Besides I don't think it's true. Antes and more progressive blinds can only speed things up. From my experience about half the field drops in the first hour at both Stars and Party. At Party you can be a little more patient. At Stars you have to be more aggressive and really go after the blinds and antes.

[cartoonsoldier]

More than anything, I think Stars wins out because of their software. I also agree than later on in NL tournaments antes are a must, its not a good idea to have one deep stack who got lucky earlier on sitting there just stealing blinds everyround or so.

[mrbaseball]

I agree about the software. Stars buries Party there. What antes really do is FORCE the small stacks to constantly make desperation pushes making the tournament more of a crapshoot.

The stacks just aren't deep enough in the late rounds to actually play poker so we have all in fests. I think Party is on the right track with no antes.

The reason the bigger ($200+) tournaments have better structures is reward better play by decreasing the crapshoot effect. So WCOOP events have 30 minute levels and 2500 starting. Party million only increase the levels to 20 minutes. The weekly 200 on stars starts with 2500 and 20 minute levels.

But come down to the end and the stacks aren't deep enough to play anything but a push it style of game in most cases.

[davidross]

Funny reading this, I was thinking of posting something about why I hate Party tournaments. I may be biased because I only play the rebuy at Stars (Plus the recent WCOOP events which had lots of play) because the rebuy gives you lots of play too.

Party needs to get their act together to stop the stalling (go to a time bank), don't go to hand for hand so early, and I'd like to see more starting chips too.

[cartoonsoldier]

Yes, I forgot the Time Bank part on Stars too.

I think antes are very much essential to NL tournament games.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
don't go to hand for hand so early

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree here! One of my first ever fianl tables was a Party tourney with about 1500+ entrants. There were a zillion payout levels and the stalling at each payout tier was absolutely unbearable. I think the early hand for hand is a very good thing. Party really could use the time bank though too.

But yeah I still prefer playing at Stars and I too mainly play the rebuys.

[davidross]

Maybe we are looking at the two different approaches to the same solution. I find the early hand for hand makes the tournament run so slow. Clearly they have done it because of the stalling, so maybe the time bank is the answer. Stars goes to hand for hand only 1 place before a bubble, and I've never encountered the stalling there.