JJ - did I give up to early?

[joker122]

Still new at the table but SB has shown already that he likes to showdown alot of hands. Unfortunately, I can't really guage is aggression at this point. No reads on MP but he's short stacked (about 7 BBs).

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, MP calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks.

River: (7.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

I'm still trying to learn shorthanded but at a full ring game folding that flop is standard. Any suggestions?

[vanHelsing]

5/10 6 max is aggressive, SB could hold something like A7s, 56s or 88.
I would 3 bet and play from there.

[fnord_too]

You definitely gave up too soon. A check raise on the flop usually indicates a vulnerable hand. 3-bet or at the very least take a card off and see what action the turn brings.

[joker122]

Doesn't the fact that MP called 2 cold on the flop change things though?

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't the fact that MP called 2 cold on the flop change things though?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. Heavy action on the flop usually belies moderate hands, most strong hands will wait until the turn to come to life. Sure MP may have something like AQ, but my impression at that level is that most people who raise pre flop are determined to at least see the turn, and will pay off with some pretty weak hodings. I would not be surprised to see either opponent flip up a hand like AT, 66, or JK here.

[fsuplayer]

I had a similar hand yesterday when I three bet pf with 1010 and got checked raised and cold called on the K high flop.

I folded and was shown a busted draw and 66 at the showdown.

I am not sure whether 3 betting is the best play here, but its what I would lean towards.

3 bet the flop, bet the turn and check through the river if you dont improve.

fsuplayer

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

3 bet the flop, bet the turn and check through the river if you dont improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're learning fast! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

FWIW a lot of the times I'll still bet the river but that's opponent dependent. Betting the river has the added bonus of increasing the likelihood of getting calls on future rivers when you KNOW you want them. Looking at it a different way: an observent opponent may see you check this river with JJ, but on a later hand 3-bet the flop and keep betting through the river and therefore more accurately put in a river fold due to the lack of continued aggression on this hand.

[joker122]

As soon as I folded I had a bad feeling about my decision. MP had Kh2h, and SB showed 7c2c and took it down with a pair of sevens.

[Schneids]

As an aside a lot of the times when MP does have a queen, MP would bet into you on the flop.

Therefore when the cold call happens it shouldn't scare you quite yet.

[Magikist]

Joker,

Don't be results-oriented. You're right, in a full ring game that's an easy fold, and even shorthanded it's not bad in many spots. Don't be so easy influenced by just a couple of posters. A lot of the play advocated here is overaggressive. Splashing the pot here is a good way to lose a lot of chips fast. I would only 3-bet against the most atrocious opponents or real LAGs, and even with the latter case there's good reasoning for simply calling down.

I think your fold is weak because of your read on the SB. If he's lose and goes too far with hands, like you said, then you're giving up a lot of EV by folding with so much equity. The cold caller is disturbing, but with zero information on him you can't let this call knock you off your hand.

That said, I have to disagree with the others in this thread. From my experience a checkraise on the flop is often top pair. A7 or a middling pocket pair will most likely lead this flop. If you can take anything from our disagreement, it's that flop aggression is very poor information. Your most valuable information, then, will be player reads. This is critical in the shorthanded game.

As for my line for the rest of the hand, I would simply call down if the board stays friendly, and bet if checked to on the river, which will happen very frequently. The aggro's on this forum may feel repulsed by this line of play, but it's the cheapest way to a showdown, and more importantly, critical information. You need to look up both the SB and the cold caller.

One of the keys to Party's 5/10 shorthanded game is to let the aggro's blow off their chips. There is NO sense in going to war with such a marginal and vulnerable holding.