QJo on the button [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Guy McSucker

08-07-2004, 05:54 AM

This business of trying to improve my play is hoiting.

What on earth should I do in this hand?

Thanks again!

Guy.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Sucker MC is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, Sucker MC calls, SB completes, BB checks,

 Four calls in front of me so I limp this offsuit trash. Is this a good idea? 

Flop: (7 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Sucker MC raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls.

 I'm getting 8-1. Looks like I just about have a call with middle pair, but I really can't decide between call, raise and fold here. 8-1 looks okay to trawl for two pair, but there's the two-flush and lots of adversaries, so just calling seems bad.

Is a protective raise here a good plan? Or is the pot too small? My standard play here is to fold, but I'm trying to seize more opportunities than I used to...


Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Sucker MC checks.

 Now I'm going all weak-tight again, but I'm convinced he has me beat.

River: (5.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
CO bets, Sucker MC folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB
Main Pot: 5.50 BB, won by CO.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to CO.

 Must I call the river here, having perhaps induced a bluff by checking the turn? My hand proobably looks like a flush draw.

Thanks for any commments on all streets!

Guy.

jt1

08-07-2004, 07:42 AM

i'd limp with QJo against 4 limpers. You'll win your fair share, which brings up an important question. If it does win its fair share then why not raise with it? And since this isn't a drawing hand then if it doesn't win its' fair share should it be folded?

Experts please share.

The raise on the flop is borderline simply because many people play any Ace and many people are in this pot. As for drawing to two pair, except when the pot odds are enormous, I follow Jones' advice about that. 'Make sure your kicker is an overcard.' He also says 'or you have a backdoor draw', but I don't buy that one. I still might raise, however, because it was 2'nd last to act that bet.

If you do raise then it shouldn't be for the free card. You should bet turn and river.

lefty rosen

08-07-2004, 08:20 AM

Queen jack is a weird hand at low limit. If it's a fishy game it's a drawing hand. If the game is tight you can bully with it. There you probably are beat but a call to look up your opponent isn't bad either.......

chesspain

08-07-2004, 09:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd limp with QJo against 4 limpers. You'll win your fair share, which brings up an important question. If it does win its fair share then why not raise with it? And since this isn't a drawing hand then if it doesn't win its' fair share should it be folded?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your point. Although I hate QJo, I would play this hand because I have excellent position on multiple, presumably weak, limpers. Why do I want to engorge the pot when I'm going to be up against at least four other players, and I have no chance of narrowing the field and little chance of winning unimproved. I want to make a cheap investment now, since the reason I played this hand is so that I can bail on the flop if my future in this hand doesn't look promising. Futhermore, if I do flop TP, I don't want the pot to be so big that anyone with anything (including overcards) is more tempted to chase.

[ QUOTE ]
The raise on the flop is borderline simply because many people play any Ace and many people are in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ].

Huh? The fact that no one bet even though there was no PF raise makes me doubt that anyone (besides for possibly the CO) has an ace. I don't know if I'ld raise or call, but my action would not be based on the fear that one of the flop checkers has A6o. However, if someone does have a weak-ace, raising probably increases your EV by giving them a chance to fold now. Furthermore, raising here gets you to try to fold out hands like KTo (or at least give them incorrect odds to chase). Given all of the above, I'ld probably raise, and take the free card on the turn if I received more than one caller.

[ QUOTE ]
As for drawing to two pair, except when the pot odds are enormous, I follow Jones' advice about that. 'Make sure your kicker is an overcard.'

[/ QUOTE ]

UGH!

[ QUOTE ]
If you do raise then it shouldn't be for the free card. You should bet turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is throwing away money. No ace is going to fold. Either bet the turn and check behind on the river, or check the turn and play bluff catcher on the river. I think that in general the former play is better, since you don't lose a bet when CO has a drawing hand or a Q/worse kicker that he is now afraid to bet.

MAxx

08-07-2004, 09:48 AM

Preflop- I would limp here on button. If QJ were suited, I would raise.

Flop- not sure really, but your play cleared the field and got you a cheep path the river.

Turn- I like the check... cashing on the freebie is goot here

River- What are you doing? IMO, you HAVE TO call here. Sure you maybe beat. But you just took a free card, you are encouraging him to bet into you on river.

Your play of this hand here looks clumsy and uncoordinated. Did you expect your flop raise to take down the pot right then and there.... that doesnt happen often. Did you expect to buy a free showdown? that doesnt happen much either. If you were going to play river like this, you should have folded on the flop. Sure you didnt improve on the turn or river, but i dont think he did much either.

Guy McSucker

08-07-2004, 11:39 AM

Good posts maxx and chesspain.

I thought my river play was very weak at the time.

Clumsy and uncoordinated about sums it up. In the hands I post, you are witnessing a selection of hands from a player who is working hard at changing from years of (winning) weak-tightness. Further malcoordination is to follow, I'm sure. For now, let me say how much I appreciate your help.

Guy.

joker122

08-07-2004, 11:46 AM

I play it the same except I call the river. Once you check the turn you have to showdown.

bernie

08-07-2004, 03:17 PM

Preflop: fine

Flop: The raise did what you wanted it to. clear the field.

Turn: fine. You can also bet here. This can be debated both ways. I'd be more likely to check if this player isn't known to bet draws. The wider range i can put him on, based on prior hands, the more i may bet here.

River: Same reasoning as the turn. If you don't think he'd have bet out on the flop with anything less than an A, and these players do exist, then fold.

However, many in that position will bet many hands. You could've easily just induced a bluff or a bet from a lesser hand. Look at how your play looks to him. How many hands could you be holding given this pattern? He may actually think you missed your flush draw like he could've. (remember, many will misplay a baby flush draw in this spot and raise/jam the flop)

Barring no reads, call this river bet.

b