Good players, bad beats and entitlement: not quite an essay

[Pirc Defense]

Understand that only the recepient of a recent bad beat would wax philosophical as I'm about to, but I've hit upon a theory. Indulge me.

About 15 big bets down in a $1/$2 game at Paradise, catch AKo, raise and get two callers. 79Q on the flop. I bet and get two callers, and bet again when an A hits on the turn, only losing one player. Another 7 hits on the river but I bet, get raised, call and see 79.

So, I raise preflop and some cat in middle position calls me ice cold with 79s.

I'm as cool as any cat when the beats come, bad as they may be, but I'm afraid that this just struck me the wrong way. So I thought about the hand for a bit. Mulled it over. Started asking why it upset me so much, when this kind of play usually just indicates that I'm at the right table.

Then it hits me: the "kiss me because I call two bets cold with 79s" guy just had a lot of fun taking me down, and it's something that I'll probably never have the joy of experiencing, because it's something I would never do.

Correct me if I'm wrong: calling three bets cold pre flop with 83o and belittling AA, AK and, say, TT all at once would be riotous fun. A freaking blast. Albeit a blast the likes of which I'll never experience.

You have the best hand preflop, you feel entitled to the pot. Yes, you do, don't start shaking you head. You the reader are smart, educated and are able to rationalize that it doesn't always happen that way, and for very mathematically provable and logical reasons, but you're fibbing to yourself if you don't feel a little bit of entitlement.

My theory is this (not claiming this is novel): when a good player has a good hand beat by a lesser hand, a major component of the ensuing "bad beat feeling" is the fact that the player of the bad hand just did something wrong, incorrect, not right, forbidden, etc., and was rewarded. You on the other hand, as the "good player," don't get this satisfaction because you don't put yourself in a position to administer beats in quite the same way.

Yes, that is precisely what keeps them coming back, but it is also exactly what makes bad beats sting.

As an aside, I'll say that I can't even begin to comprehend what kind of a special creature you are, if you play poker professionally, and it's your sole source of income. I hold you in the same regard as those folks that ace the LSAT. What planet do you come from? Simply amazing, and on so many levels.

[Cerril]

Not going to reply to most of your post since, as you said, everyone's seen this at some point in their career.

I made a similar observation though on one point, regarding the satisfaction of plays. It's the idea that if you had the choice of getting paid for a roll of a die, either wagering $20 to win $130 if you hit a 6 or wagering $20 to win $25 if you rolled anything but a six, you'd have the same EV but feel so much better about your wins on the first option. On the second, the losses would be unjustified and the wins would be expected.

It's the same reason we feel bad taking bad beats but rarely get that same elation. Our 'revenge', though, is the fully odds-justified draw-out.

[TheShootah]

I find some sick humor that your name is Pirc Defense. I am gonna reregister as "1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6" so we can technically have the same name.....

[pstripling]

I find your post very insightful, as I feel the same way. I would never call with trash knowing full well that I'm gonna have to get REAL LUCKY to have a prayer at winning. However I don't mind collecting all the extra bets from the fools who call with the trash and don't catch their miracle cards that hand.

[andyfox]

You're only about a 60-40 favorite with A-Ko over 9-7s.

See if you can research the archives and find Tommy Angelo's post where he defines "entitlement disease." Also, in a recent poker player, Mike Caro's article on "illusion" might be of interest to you as well.

[cnfuzzd]

I disagree. Feeling "entitled" to a pot is probably the worst form of results oriented thinking, something expert players eliminate from their game. Pure and simple.

Also, we aas TAG's do get to experience the same thing. Its called a big blind special when someone doesnt raise you out.

Regardless, why do you want to feel this way? Why do you want to feel anything in regards to your poker game? Seeking emotional satisfaction from a game that is a strange combination of human error and cold mathmatics?

peace

john nickle
peace

john nickle

[Pirc Defense]

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I disagree.

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You disagree. Sweet.

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Also, we aas TAG's do get to experience the same thing. Its called a big blind special when someone doesnt raise you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't be equating this with calling two/three bets pre-flop cold with T2o, would you? In your example every player in the pot should understand in this situation that they've allowed the BB to get involved in the pot for free, and that he could hold anything. Ain't not the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, why do you want to feel this way?

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Where in my post do I say anything about wanting to feel a certain way? Let me clarify: in most cases, I prefer to not experience beats, bad or otherwise. Your mileage may vary.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you want to feel anything in regards to your poker game? Seeking emotional satisfaction from a game that is a strange combination of human error and cold mathmatics?

[/ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't have to point this out, but get real. Nobody reading this post is a bot (ignore if you're the Google news bot) and nobody reading this post plays poker like a bot. It isn't possible.

If I should have to play poker without feeling any emotion, then I guess I wouldn't play poker at all.

Pardon me if I've miscontrued your issues with my post/reasoning/position, but I don't think you made very strong points or counterarguments.

[Pirc Defense]

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You're only about a 60-40 favorite with A-Ko over 9-7s.

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Indeed. The example I chose wasn't a very bad beat at all, it's just the one that got me thinking and prompted me to post (and which I now wish I had written entirely different).


[ QUOTE ]
See if you can research the archives and find Tommy Angelo's post where he defines "entitlement disease." Also, in a recent poker player, Mike Caro's article on "illusion" might be of interest to you as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I searched for "entitlement disease" and though I found jillions of posts with that phrase within, I didn't find the case post. Thanks for taking the time to reference both items.

[cnfuzzd]

Perhaps disagree was an incorrect term. Let me rephrase.

I have a theory. Its that when we suffer that sting of a bad beat, we should figure out why it hurts and seek to eliminate that emotional reaction. We should realize that every bad beat that we recieve is, in reality, nothing more than our minds, with a very evolved sense of survival, trying to make sense of Probability. We are trying to make the "beat" something that fits into our paradigm of reward and punishment. We should instead realize that every player who cold calls with garbage is putting money into our bankroll. We must not focus on the pot, but on the longterm. This isnt my theory, actually, its the way that professionals play. Except for phil.

<<<You wouldn't be equating this with calling two/three bets pre-flop cold with T2o, would you? In your example every player in the pot should understand in this situation that they've allowed the BB to get involved in the pot for free, and that he could hold anything. Ain't not the same thing.>>>

No. In no way is playing your big bling a mistake. However, from your post, it sounded like you were envious of the schmoe who calls two cold with 93. I was offering an alternative so that you could get that feeling. If i misunderstood, im sorry. Also, you would be amazed at how many people feel that same sting that you are describing when the BB special comes along.


<<Where in my post do I say anything about wanting to feel a certain way? Let me clarify: in most cases, I prefer to not experience beats, bad or otherwise. Your mileage may vary.>>

Then i am confused, obviously, about what your post actually was, except an attempt to deal with whatever bad beat you had just experienced.

<<<I shouldn't have to point this out, but get real. Nobody reading this post is a bot (ignore if you're the Google news bot) and nobody reading this post plays poker like a bot. It isn't possible.>>>

Most of the people reading this play better than a bot, yet can still go emotionally insane and play worse than a three year old. Just like you cant start shouting for joy every time you are dealt pocket aces, you must learn to control your emotions and avoid that sting. The cards have no memory of the last hand, why should you?

<<<If I should have to play poker without feeling any emotion, then I guess I wouldn't play poker at all.>>>

Understandable. There are several reason to play poker, from making money to wasting time while getting drunk. You dont have to remove emotions from your game. This level of control, which by no means do i possess, is only neccesary for those who want to achieve the highest level of skill, and compete in the top tier of games. The degree of emotional control is equivelent to warrior zen, and something that i personally find highly interesting. Your mileage may vary.

peace

john nickle

Must be time for a new pattern mapper to come out. Lots of bad beat posts lately.

[exist]

not so fast, you still need to fianchetto the black king's bishop. what if you felt like being devious and actually intended 3...c6 ??? sneaky devil.

[EWillers]

This notion applies across the board to all advantage gamblers.

It's the curse of applying non self weighting strategies. Just gotta stick with it (and of course continually evaluate your play and the games to ensure you stay within the realm of the advantage gambler).

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a theory. Its that when we suffer that sting of a bad beat, we should figure out why it hurts and seek to eliminate that emotional reaction.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're disagreeing while saying the same thing.

My post was an example of me doing exactly what you suggest in the quote above. After this "bad beat" I didn't start to play any differently, I didn't start to raise indiscrimminately, I didn't type anything into the chat box; rather, I began to wonder why I did feel the sting of a beat, though, and came up with what in hindsight is a pretty obvious observation about why a particular type of beat resulting from the bad play of another player stings so.

I do of course realize that were I a good player, these types of plays we're discussing would add to my winnings (decrease my losses) in the long run. Elementary to understand. Given this, my post offered a reason as to why we feel the way we do after a "bad" beat, when it's something that helps us in the long run.

Fact is, neithber of us are treading in territory hasn't been beaten to death on this here forum. My "theory" isn't novel, and your response to a perceived "bad beat bitcher" isn't anything out of the ordinary.

Thanks for your responses.

[chesspain]

You play the Pirc? No wonder you don't mind bad beats. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Pirc Defense]

[ QUOTE ]
You play the Pirc? No wonder you don't mind bad beats.



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Easy now.