I've been losing horribly, bad play mostly, 6 hands for review [Archive]

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RustyCJ

08-06-2004, 11:11 PM

Hand 1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($93.40)
CO ($44.90)
Button ($23.25)
SB ($56.45)
BB ($23.55)
UTG ($17.55)
Hero ($33.75)
MP1 ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, MP1 calls $2, 5 folds,

Flop: ($4.75) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, MP1 raises to $10, Hero raises to $22.5, MP1 calls $12.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($49.75) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($49.75) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $49.75
Main Pot: $49.75, between Hero and MP1. > Pot won by MP1 ($49.75).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ks Kh (two pair, kings and twos).
MP1 shows Ad 7d (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: MP1 wins $49.75. 

Hand 2
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($41.70)
BB ($25.40)
UTG ($43.75)
UTG+1 ($24.75)
UTG+2 ($71.55)
MP1 ($25.15)
MP2 ($10.25)
MP3 ($8.65)
CO ($25)
Hero ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0, MP1 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds,50, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $5.

Flop: ($17.75) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $8, MP1 raises to $17.15 (All-In), Hero calls $8.25 (All-In).

Turn: ($51.15) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($51.15) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $51.15
Main Pot: $50.25, between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 ($50.25).
Pot 2: $0.89, returned to MP1.

Results in white below: 
MP1 shows Ks Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero shows Kc Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP1 wins $51.14. 

Hand 3
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($24.50)
CO ($41.95)
Hero ($32.50)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($37.08)
UTG ($28.32)
UTG+1 ($33.85)
MP1 ($25.90)
MP2 ($27.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1, 1 fold,75,

Flop: ($4.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4.

Turn: ($16.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, SB calls $6.

River: ($28.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9.

Final Pot: $46.50
Main Pot: $46.50, between Hero and SB. > Pot won by SB ($46.50).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Ad Kd (two pair, aces and kings).
Hero shows Js Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins $46.50. 

Hand 4
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($25)
Button ($22.40)
SB ($49.30)
BB ($26.75)
UTG ($60.70)
UTG+1 ($27.75)
UTG+2 ($11.25)
MP1 ($16.30)
MP2 ($25)
Hero ($36.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 (poster) calls $0, Hero calls $1, CO (poster) raises to $2, 3 folds,50, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($10.75) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $5, CO raises to $10, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($31.75) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $13 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $44.75
Main Pot: $31.75, won by CO.
Pot 2: $13, returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins $44.75. 

Hand 5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($77.55)
MP1 ($24.50)
MP2 ($19.55)
MP3 ($22.75)
CO ($26.60)
Button ($37.55)
SB ($22.30)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, MP1 calls $2, 5 folds, Hero raises to $5,5, UTG+1 calls $3.50, MP1 calls $3.50.

Flop: ($16.75) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $6, UTG+1 raises to $72.05 (All-In), MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $94.80
Main Pot: $28.75, won by UTG+1.
Pot 2: $66.05, returned to UTG+1.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. UTG+1 wins $94.80. 

Hand 6
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($26.95)
MP2 ($101.70)
MP3 ($22.05)
CO ($20.76)
Hero ($25.90)
SB ($23.15)
BB ($25)
UTG ($15.30)
UTG+1 ($66.05)
UTG+2 ($16.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0, CO calls $0, Hero calls $0, 1 fold, BB checks,50,50,50,50,

Flop: ($2.75) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets $2.65, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $2.65.

River: ($8.05) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $7.65, Hero calls $7.65.

Final Pot: $23.35
Main Pot: $23.35, between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB ($23.35).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 9s 4h (full house, fours full of nines).
Hero shows Ad 3d (flush, ace high).
Outcome: BB wins $23.35.

Bob Moss

08-07-2004, 01:57 AM

On Hand 2, I think you need a better plan. Betting the flop is not going to fold a better hand. Even if you move in, you'll likely get called by any Ace getting 2:1 to call. If you are ahead here, you are likely ahead by A LOT, and so giving a free card probably won't hurt you. And who knows, maybe you'll hit your 2-outer. If your opponent makes any decent-size bet on a later street, you can usually safely fold, because it is unlikely he would try to bluff a preflop reraiser who has position on him... after all, if you had AK and he had KK, wouldn't you want to induce a bluff?

Bob

Also, I forgot to mention, if you do bet this flop for this amount, I think you have to fold to the checkraise, because even though you're getting 5:1 on that call, he is a 19:1 favorite with AK and a 10:1 favorite with A2.

creedofhubris

08-07-2004, 04:03 AM

Just a bad run of cards.

I call hand #4, the top pair, king kicker, on the turn. You're getting better than three to one on your money there. The key is that your opponent is allin and can't make you pay more to see the showdown.

JohnG

08-07-2004, 02:56 PM

hand 1 looks ok.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($41.70)
BB ($25.40)
UTG ($43.75)
UTG+1 ($24.75)
UTG+2 ($71.55)
MP1 ($25.15)
MP2 ($10.25)
MP3 ($8.65)
CO ($25)
Hero ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0, MP1 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds,50, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $5.

Flop: ($17.75) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $8, MP1 raises to $17.15 (All-In), Hero calls $8.25 (All-In).

Turn: ($51.15) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($51.15) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

[/ QUOTE ]

With only one bet left, I check the flop. I aint going to get an ace to laydown, and if I'm ahead, I let them get away by betting. I probably check it down if possible. Quality of player and what he does with QQ matters.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($24.50)
CO ($41.95)
Hero ($32.50)
SB ($24.50)
BB ($37.08)
UTG ($28.32)
UTG+1 ($33.85)
MP1 ($25.90)
MP2 ($27.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1, 1 fold,75,

Flop: ($4.50) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4.

Turn: ($16.50) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, SB calls $6.

River: ($28.50) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would normally call the flop bet with these ratios and texture. A raise lets those hands we bury get away or bluff us out.

Once you raise, I would check behind them on turn. They are either way ahead or way behind, and I would be checking with intent of making a little money on river when ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($25)
Button ($22.40)
SB ($49.30)
BB ($26.75)
UTG ($60.70)
UTG+1 ($27.75)
UTG+2 ($11.25)
MP1 ($16.30)
MP2 ($25)
Hero ($36.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 (poster) calls $0, Hero calls $1, CO (poster) raises to $2, 3 folds,50, UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($10.75) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $5, CO raises to $10, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($31.75) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $13 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $44.75
Main Pot: $31.75, won by CO.
Pot 2: $13, returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins $44.75. 

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't go past flop on this hand. Your raise on flop is a bluff to get better hands to fold. Not something I'd do with this hand. I'd call the initial flop bet and fold to any significant raise. It's not a hand to put a lot of chips in with.

Once you raise and it's re-raised, it's decision time. Go allin or fold. Do not call and allow a card to come off with these ratios and your hand. In this situation, a fold looks best given the action, the ratios, and his raise amount. He has a hand better than KJ and will not be folding.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($77.55)
MP1 ($24.50)
MP2 ($19.55)
MP3 ($22.75)
CO ($26.60)
Button ($37.55)
SB ($22.30)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, MP1 calls $2, 5 folds, Hero raises to $5,5, UTG+1 calls $3.50, MP1 calls $3.50.

Flop: ($16.75) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $6, UTG+1 raises to $72.05 (All-In), MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $94.80
Main Pot: $28.75, won by UTG+1.
Pot 2: $66.05, returned to UTG+1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here, I'd flat call the preflop raise given that it will be a 3 way pot and I will have ideal position relative to raiser.

Generally, re-raising with QQ preflop is not a good idea when the money is not shallow, regardless of good or bad opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 6
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($26.95)
MP2 ($101.70)
MP3 ($22.05)
CO ($20.76)
Hero ($25.90)
SB ($23.15)
BB ($25)
UTG ($15.30)
UTG+1 ($66.05)
UTG+2 ($16.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls $0, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0, CO calls $0, Hero calls $0, 1 fold, BB checks,50,50,50,50,

Flop: ($2.75) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($2.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB bets $2.65, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $2.65.

River: ($8.05) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $7.65, Hero calls $7.65.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet the flop if there's a chance to take it there. Otherwise check. I fold to any bet on any street given the pot is small and is not worth stealing on a later street either by raising or bluff calling, nor will I likely win a big pot if I hit the flush.

If I bet flop, I slowdown if called. If hit the flush, I just call any bet. If checked to me after flush comes, whether I bet all my chips depends on player and card that flushed me.

In general, your play with these top pair type hands appears ideally suited to either winning small pots or losing bigger ones, rather than giving yourself a chance to win bigger pots from hands you bury whilst minimising your losses if buried yourself. This is because you seem to be too aggressive with top pair type hands post flop when there is more than 1 bet left in the stacks. I think you probably overvalue them on deep money.

J-Lo

08-07-2004, 03:36 PM

wow, i'm playing the exact same way and losing with pretty much the same hands...

so what i need to do is start letting others hang themselves when the flop comes rainbowed, or non straiht threatening?

i feel i also over value TP type hands... i also force myself to bet the flop whenever i'm the pre flop raiser... maybe i should cut down on this too

poker tracker puts my agression level at 2.75 if not including the preflop betting, and only 1.25 if including hte preflop betting, does this mean i need to start raising more often preflop? or is a 1.25 aggressive enough?

i know that 2.75 is way too agressive, so should i start check calling more often? i find myself being agressive on the flop, and then becoming weak tight on the turn and river... meaning i try and check call w/ TP weak kicker, or sometimes even middle pair....

How can i start getting away from hands like these? Most comes out of blinds play, or LP raiseing w/ KQs or medium PP

felson

08-07-2004, 03:43 PM

There's no need to post hands like hand 1. Obviously you played it great.

JohnG

08-10-2004, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i'm playing the exact same way and losing with pretty much the same hands...

so what i need to do is start letting others hang themselves when the flop comes rainbowed, or non straiht threatening?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, with top pair type hands, it is related to getting action from hands you have buried whilst not losing too much when buried yourself.

The main reason is that these type of hands are not really hands you want to put a lot of chips in with when the money is deep. Talking generally here, as sometimes you don't have much option. For example, if you had raised preflop, bet the flop without getting raised with drawing hands on board, then you may end up putting it allin or a large chunk by the river. When I say overvalueing these type of hands, I am talking re-raising preflop with QQ, or raising a bettor post flop when there is more than 1 bet left in the stacks with hands like TPTK or overpairs.

When someone bets the flop, and you hold hands of this nature, if there is only 1 bet left should you call, then your usual decision is whether to go all-in or fold.

When there would be more than 1 bet left should you call, your decision is usually to call or fold when holding TPTK/overpair type hands. Once you call, you have options on the turn. You may be moving in, you may be checking, you may be betting, you may be calling, you may be folding. Either way, you are probably in a better situation than had you raised on the flop.

Raising the flop usually means you end up winning a small pot or put yourself in a tough spot and in danger of losing a big one, or getting bluffed off the best hand. Overall, you are minimising your wins and maximising your losses with these hands. Plenty of other type hands I'd rather raise a bettor with. Hands like bottom pair, draws, big made hands.

[ QUOTE ]
i feel i also over value TP type hands... i also force myself to bet the flop whenever i'm the pre flop raiser... maybe i should cut down on this too

[/ QUOTE ]

When you hit top pair after raising or do you mean after raising in general? Either way, it's situational. When raising in general, usually bet after raising preflop, if there's a chance to win the pot uncontested, (assuming you missed). When raising preflop and hitting top pair, then usually bet on flop. The time to check it is probably when you are unlikely to get any better hands to fold, and unlikely to get action from any worse made hands. It's tough to talk genberally, as my mind keeps changing from being in position and out of position, and between big TPTK hands and lesser top pair hands.

If you hit TPTK or overpair type hands after raising preflop, well sometimes you will go broke due to no-one playing back at you, depending on actual depth of money. If you bet flop and get called, then you will usually bet turn also if there were draws out etc.

If you raise preflop, and someone bets a significant amount into you on flop, with more than 1 bet left, usually just call with TPTK/overpair type hands. With only 1 bet left, raise all-in or fold.

Basically, with any type of hand and regardless of whether you raised, someone else did, or it was unraised preflop, the flop is about getting action from hands you bury on flop and/or getting folds from better hands. The turn is similar, except you have the added consideration of wanting it allin whether against a draw or worse made hands. That way you get it allin as at least a good favourite and also avoid being bluffed out on river.

[ QUOTE ]
poker tracker puts my agression level at 2.75 if not including the preflop betting, and only 1.25 if including hte preflop betting, does this mean i need to start raising more often preflop? or is a 1.25 aggressive enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea. Though I am only talking about aggression with TPTK type hands in general, not aggression in general.

[ QUOTE ]
i know that 2.75 is way too agressive, so should i start check calling more often?

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position, probably betting or check-folding in general.

[ QUOTE ]
i find myself being agressive on the flop, and then becoming weak tight on the turn and river... meaning i try and check call w/ TP weak kicker, or sometimes even middle pair....

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, that can leak a lot of chips when doing it with 2 betting streets to go and out of position. Out of position with the type of hands you mention on the turn, normally either follow through and bet again, or check with intention of folding.

This is a different subject. Remember, in my earlier post, I was referring to TPTK/overpair type hands when it is bet to you post flop with more than 1 bet left in the stacks.

With your situation, and these weak top pair and lesser hands, I assume it is unraised preflop, as you wouldn't want to be building these types of hands out of position in a raised pot. If it is unraised preflop and you are the blind for example, bet the pot if you can get called by worse made hands or get better hands to fold and win uncontested. If neither of these are likely, check. Check-folding is Ok, as indeeed may check-raising. Check-calling, no. As you are either likely to be beat or it may cost you a lot of chips to get to showdown and find out if you were best, and that's assuming it held up by river when best on flop. A losing play overall. If you check and it's checked around, say in a 4 way pot. Then you may now get action from worse hands when you bet a later street. etc.

Same with TPTK type hands, say K9 on a 9 hi flop with 5 opponents and you are first to act in a raised pot. You don't want to bet out of position if you are unlikely to get called by worse made hands or win this decent pot uncontested. Betting in that case will just be building a bigger pot with a hand that would prefer a smaller one, and put you in a tough spot on later streets regardless of what your opponent holds.

[ QUOTE ]
How can i start getting away from hands like these?

[/ QUOTE ]

With regards the TPTK/overpair hands, the first thing to do is learn how the pot/stack ratios post flop affect your options and value of TPTK type hands.

If you're talking the party games, then top pair type hands are going to be hands you often back with your stack, due to the ratios.