My beef with waiting until the turn to raise

[balkii]

Ok i am becoming more familiar with the wait until a safe card comes off on the turn to raise. To protect your hand/maximize your EV yadda yadda yadda.

My problem is what do you do when the safe card DOESNT hit? Still raise? Fold? Call-down? UGGGGGGGGGh I'm clueless.

take a look.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

River: (16.20 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 17.20 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 16.20 BB, won by BB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to BB.</font>

[elindauer]

Hi balkii,

I struggle with this myself. One nice thing about waiting for the turn to raise is that sometimes the bad card hits and the action in front of you makes it obvious you are beaten. In that situation, you save money. If the bad card hits but the action doesn't convince you you're beaten, I usually go ahead and raise. In bigger pots, it's important to put in the money and protect your hand. In smaller pots, there's less fear that you're actually behind.

There are, as always, specific situations where I'd deviate from this. But as a general rule, I'd say raise.

good luck.
Eric

[Cerril]

It's a matter of what you would have done anyway.

The idea, if I understand it, of often waiting for the turn to raise is twofold. First, you might get an extra BB rather than an extra SB (we all get that). The other one is that if you raise you're pretty much assuming a call anyway by a draw on the flop. Especially if they're passive.

So if you have a read and see the card you don't want show up (-certain- the calling station has an A when you're sitting with KK), then you can make an easy check/fold and save one small bet. Even if you're sure you'd call it down you're still saving yourself a bet more often than you're failing to gain one more.

If you think it might be a scare card to them (rather than making their hand), now you're raising to try to take the pot, rather than to put more money in.

[Nate tha' Great]

I'd probably 3-bet the flop. The pot is not -that- large, and check-raise action might scare some players who otherwise might have called, particularly those who might have called with just overcards. Further, there is really no guarantee that BB will bet out on the turn if he is betting a flush draw. Finally, if he has flopped a straight or a set, then raising him on the turn will be more expensive, since he'll 3-bet and you'll have a lot of trouble folding on a blank.

[Ed Miller]

Ok i am becoming more familiar with the wait until a safe card comes off on the turn to raise. To protect your hand/maximize your EV yadda yadda yadda.

My problem is what do you do when the safe card DOESNT hit? Still raise? Fold? Call-down? UGGGGGGGGGh I'm clueless.

Well, first of all, waiting for the turn generally hasn't made your decision any more difficult. After all, the same turn card would have come, just with a bigger pot.

Having said that, what you should do really depends strongly on hand reading. Raising, calling, and folding all need to be considered. How many outs do you have against the hand you suspect you are against? How convinced are you that you are against the hand you fear? And how big is the pot?

[brick]

Sometimes it make the decision tougher because the pot has more players in it. If you bet or raise on the flop some people may fold.

[Ed Miller]

Sometimes it make the decision tougher because the pot has more players in it. If you bet or raise on the flop some people may fold.

Well, yes, but waiting for the turn with a vulnerable hand is rarely correct if raising on the flop might induce folds. That play should be saved for when flop aggression is unlikely to get people to fold.

Like if you have five opponents, you should usually wait for the turn to raise with a vulnerable hand only if you expect zero or one person to fold if you raise immediately. If you think two or more people are likely to fold, you should typically raise immediately.

[Lmn55d]

so how would you play this example Ed (assuming no reads anyone)?

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

waiting for the turn generally hasn't made your decision any more difficult. After all, the same turn card would have come, just with a bigger pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

But in these situations the decision is usually between passing or calling down, so making the pot bigger on the flop does make the decision easier.

Guy.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yes, but waiting for the turn with a vulnerable hand is rarely correct if raising on the flop might induce folds. That play should be saved for when flop aggression is unlikely to get people to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like some of you guys are misunderstanding the "wait until the turn" thing. The FIRST priority is protecting your hand. This hand is actually a pretty good example of a spot where raising (here, 3-betting) the flop *does* have a pretty good chance of inducing folds from hands you'd rather not have sticking around.