Correct Application of Ed's Theorem or Fishy Calling Station?

[DMBFan23]

Table nice and loose passive, just the way we likes it.
my thought process on the turn and river was "don't fold top pair in a big pot for one bet. just stop doing it."

comments on all streets welcome.

Absolute Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Kx suited good when I know I can get in for one bet, yes?

Flop: (8 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.

raised cause I have top pair. three bet could have been two pair, spades, a monster, or 27o.

Turn: (12 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Terrible.

River: (16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

top pair, no fold. I love being a calling station. passive g00t.

Final Pot: 19 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19 BB, between Hero, MP3 and UTG+1.</font>

Flame on.

[Piiop]

If you feel that you can play K7s on this table against those opponents and make a profit then that's fine.

Flop is good.

I would bet the turn. The 3-bet/check combo is weird, but you don't want to give out any free cards here.

On the river, the spades didn't get there and neither did any str8 draws so I would bet here.

[Jimbobobb]

3-bet/check looks like a flush draw. I'd bet the turn, no sense giving the draws a free card. MP3 looks to have at least a queen, probably a king. Do you think your kicker is good?

[Zetack]

I don't like the PF limp. K-x suited not nearly as good as A-x suited. Maybe on the button with a bunch of limpers. Not MP with just two.

--Zetack

[Jimbobobb]

If you're at an extremely loose/passive table where you can count on it being 8-handed to the flop w/out a raise like this hand, I don't think calling with K-X suited is bad.

[Beavis68]

Calling with K7 is loose, remember, top pair, connectedness, suitedness - this only really had one.

[vulturesrow]

If I know I am getting more callers behind me, i am limping here..I thought the limp was just fine.

Chris

[Goon2]

Ed suggests folding K7s in MP. Although I would have folded it, it's not a flameable error.

UTG is probably betting a flush or straight draw on the flop, but when he misses both on the turn he slows down. He "may as well check and call" on the river when he misses.

Assuming MP3 plays somewhat well (I recognize this is a big assumption), the only hands you can really put him on are K2, Q2 or 22 (I doubt he's playing 62). My bet is that he has 2 pair, probably Q2, or a set. When he morphs into the raiser on the turn, I figure I am behind and my outs (Kings and Eights) are dirty.

I'd have folded pre flop. The call on the turn was bad.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming MP3 plays somewhat well (I recognize this is a big assumption), the only hands you can really put him on are K2, Q2 or 22 (I doubt he's playing 62). My bet is that he has 2 pair, probably Q2, or a set. When he morphs into the raiser on the turn, I figure I am behind and my outs (Kings and Eights) are dirty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Firstly, MP3 bet the turn after it was checked to him, he did not raise a bet. Nextly, where are you coming up with these hands? 22 is NOT a possibility at all. He would not have called 2 cold on the flop with an underpair. K2 is slightly possible, but very doubtful. It's also very unlikely he called two with 2nd pair worst kicker so Q2 isn't there either. K6 and Q6 are much more likely, but don't you think he would've 3-bet with those? 66 is a reasonable holding if he was slowplaying. It is very, very weak thinking to put the opponent on the exact hands that beat the hero. It is much more likely that MP3 has Kx. If this is true, the hero could already have the best hand, or could have 3 outs to win, or 6 more outs for a split.

[ QUOTE ]
The call on the turn was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 15:1 to call one bet on the turn (which was a complete blank) with top pair and you fold? That is bad.

[smartalecc5]

id call too.

[DMBFan23]

Preflop: The limp pf was due to the fact that I just (3 or 4 hands prior) won a 35 BB pot with TT, and I thought I could get away from this hand pretty easily if the flop whiffed. plus, I expected lots of limpers that would pay me off if I hit. if I dont flop at least top pair or a flush draw, it's an easy fold. pretty good implied odds IMO, on a not too janky hand.

Flop: I think this was the only non-controversial street, with top pair in an unraised pot I have to like my hand at this point. I would have heard from KQ preflop I think, and putting either of them on K6 or Q6 is monsters under the bed. 66 is certainly possible, but unlikely...I certainly dont give anyone credit for that at this point. when it comes back one to me with three to act, I definitely have to call. after that, I'm calling down unimproved, and I'll think about folding to a flush if the action gets hot.

Turn: pot big. top pair. should raise, but dont want to get three bet. I now put UTG squarely on spades. MP3 I'm not sure of yet, but it smells of slowplay. pot big. no fold. should I have raised here to maximize my chances of winning the pot?

River: pot big. spades read confirmed with UTG's check fold. MP3...still not sure, but for 17 BB I'll find out. pot big. no fold top pair.

[DMBFan23]

I count two.

[DMBFan23]

wasnt sure about the kicker, and I think that's why I went into call down mode on the turn/river.

P.S. How's b-burg? and you must be crushing the .5/1 with nottom as mentor.

[PotatoStew]

[ QUOTE ]

Nextly, where are you coming up with these hands? 22 is NOT a possibility at all. He would not have called 2 cold on the flop with an underpair.
...
It's also very unlikely he called two with 2nd pair worst kicker so Q2 isn't there either.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a .25/.50 limit game... you really don't think these are possibilities?

[Brian]

Fold pre-Flop, but that has already been discussed.

I fold the Flop. The pot is not that large, you have no kicker, and there is a bet and a call to you with 3 players remaining to act behind you. This is not a good situation to be in. While UTG could be betting a hand like Axs, or JT, the most likely candidate from his bet is a King with a better kicker. And, even though there is a chance you have a better hand than UTG, there are still 3 people left to act behind you.

It is not good poker to be constantly worried about there being hands out there that can beat you. But with this Flop, and your kicker, the reality is that you will often be beaten right here with very few outs. And, even if you aren't, the board is very draw-heavy and you're going to have to put in a lot of bets to try to protect your hand and to also find out if in fact your Kings with 7 kicker is best.

Bottom line, small pot, bad Flop, bad position. This is why you fold this hand pre-Flop. It is very difficult to tell when a King Flops if you have the best hand. While I have not read SSH yet, HPFAP specifically mentions that if you are going to automatically play Kxs strongly whenever a King Flops, you are going to cost yourself a lot of money. That's why they only recommend playing it on the Button or CO after quite a few limpers, and only if you can often Flop a King and still fold.

-Brian

[DMBFan23]

PF: let's put that on the backburner. I believe SSHE discusses hands like this when you know you can get in for a single bet, but I havent read it yet so we'll see.

On the flop, I have top pair, and there are 10 SB in the pot when it comes one bet to me. at tougher limits, or against a tough opponent, I imagine this is a fold (there is a hand in HPFAP involving A8 suited on a flop of AQx with two spades, in the pot odds and implied odds section, that describes precisely such a fold - "you may be against a better ace, and a spade or straight card can beat you"), but at .25/.5? I liked my hand on the flop. I didnt like it as much after the three bet, but had to call cause the pot was big at that point.

IMO, I would apply the implied odds example I gave/Kxs HPFAP advice applies to games where people would not play a K unless it was paired with a kicker that I can't beat, but in .25/.5, won't people bet lots of hands that mine beats?

Paraphrasing NPA, he wrote (somewhere after an Axs post) something like "yeah, if you had to fold when an ace flops, then Axs IS a pretty crappy hand...but you dont always have to fold." Now, I was ready to fold to UTG's turn check raise after the flop three bet, but it turned out it wasnt a check raise after all. I think I would have heard from KQ preflop, and I have odds to draw against anything else short of a set, for one turn bet.

I think this is a big enough pot, with a good flop, and my position isnt the worst.

[ QUOTE ]
if you are going to automatically play Kxs strongly whenever a King Flops, you are going to cost yourself a lot of money

[/ QUOTE ]

in general I agree, and after my flop raise, I did just call down. if I posted this hand after folding top pair for one bet on the turn, I'd hate to see the responses I'd get.


EDIT: the sentence about K's with kicker's that I CANT beat, not can.

[Nottom]

I'd fold pre-flop and bet the turn.

[DMBFan23]

MP3 shows Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG+1 mucks.

MHIG.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're at an extremely loose/passive table where you can count on it being 8-handed to the flop w/out a raise like this hand, I don't think calling with K-X suited is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never sat a such a table. Never. I've sat at some with occaisional 8 to the flop no raise, none where I could count on it.

I used to limp with K-x suited late with several limpers a lot, when Joe Tall mentioned in a post that he didn't do that, I started thinking about it, and I've concluded there just aren't enough ways to win with K-x suited to make me happy. And in an early or MP....nahhhh.

--Zetack

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
PF: let's put that on the backburner. I believe SSHE discusses hands like this when you know you can get in for a single bet, but I havent read it yet so we'll see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if there is positive EV in this hand from this position, I do not think it exists for many of us (myself included) on these forums. The key part to playing hands like these is being able to Flop a King and still fold. If you're going to pay off bigger kicker Kings every time a King Flops, you're going to lose your bankroll fast.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, I have top pair, and there are 10 SB in the pot when it comes one bet to me. at tougher limits, or against a tough opponent, I imagine this is a fold (there is a hand in HPFAP involving A8 suited on a flop of AQx with two spades, in the pot odds and implied odds section, that describes precisely such a fold - "you may be against a better ace, and a spade or straight card can beat you"), but at .25/.5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether playing 25/50, or .25/.50, the cards are dealt the same. Kicker issues exist no matter what limit you play at. Hands like KJ, KT, and K9 are played almost 100% of the time at the lower limits. If I somehow managed to get myself involved from MP with K7s at 25/50, I'd probably be more inclined to like my hand there than here, simply because at those games you definitely would have heard from KQ or AK pre-Flop, and most people fold KJ-K8.

[ QUOTE ]
I liked my hand on the flop. I didnt like it as much after the three bet, but had to call cause the pot was big at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely my point. You are in a bad situation. If you don't see that, then you are misapplying a lot of the concepts that you have read here. You have top pair with a bad kicker in a multiway pot, the Flop is co-ordinated, there has been a bet and a call to you, and there are still 3 players remaining to act behind you. The pot is NOT large enough to continue on here. There wasn't even a raise pre-Flop! Fold.

If you continue to play, you will have to raise. Then you really will inflate the pot so large to where you are showdown committed. This is precisely what HPFAP talks about. Here is a quote from the section (boldness added is mine):

[ QUOTE ]
For example, if four people come in, you should play

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

You do this because:

1) Four people have come in.
2) There was no raise.
3) They play badly.
4) You are going to play it well.

That means if you play K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, four people come in, you're to the right of the button, and the flop comes:

K /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The first guy bets, and someone calls, you fold. You use your skills to keep yourself from getting trapped.

One of the reasons not to play K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is that it can be a problem if a king flops. In other words you can be trapped with this hand. But, if you are a good player, you won't get trapped. You should be able to play K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, flop a king, and still often fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
in general I agree, and after my flop raise, I did just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the definition of playing Kxs strongly. Raising the Flop, and showdown committing yourself = strongly. Anything other than folding this Flop = strongly.

-Brian

[DMBFan23]

I think I am way more likely to like my hand here, not from the standpoint of opponent information (if I were beat at 10/20 with this hand, I would know it via a preflop raise versus ditching the hand if it's kicker was worse than mine...but I would never play it there so whatever) but from the standpoint of the possible range of opponent's holdings - people play bad hands at very low limits.

how big does the pot have to be before I stop chucking top pair, in your opinion?

[DMBFan23]

I also dont think raising the flop showdown commits me. if it had come back check raised on the turn from UTG, I was out. I believe I said this. I called on the turn and river for one bet closing the action.

I went back and read that HPFAP passage from the loose games section last night, and I just cant get into folding this flop. in the HPFAP example, IMO there are more draws for hero to lose to, and two pair with 89 is more likely than Q6/K6.

also, when "they play it badly" in a mid limit game live (HPFAP's target game) I think that is vastly better play compared to when "they play it badly" in online micros.

if I can fold to heavy turn action, I apologize for not being able to see why I cant look at the turn card.

[razor]

8 sb is not a small pot (see SSH for more details... or just look at the pot - 8sb is a SSH(IT) load of chips).


I play Kxs regularly. If it's a leak, oh well... everyone needs a leak this will be mine.


I raise the flop

I bet the turn (when checked to)

I bet the river

I get shown a better hand slightly more often than not.

So What?