Relative Position/Posting

Suppose you are one off the button and now wish to take a seat that has just become available. The seat however, is directly in front of the big blind. Since you just paid both of your blinds (you were in the cutoff), you inform the dealer you will take a hand after the button passes.


Question: When the button passes (your new seat) you are essentially one off the button again. Should you have to post? If so, why?


Don't most cardrooms have a relative position rule? I'd appreciate info on how other cardrooms handle this situation. Thanks.

The rule in most Vegas rooms is you may move 2 live players without posting. If you leapfrog 3 live players, then you must post an amount equal to the BB.

Thanks. I understand the moving over 2 players rule, but that really wasn't my question. The guy in this case, would've taken a hand in the EXACT same position he was in before moving. In other words, he was not getting ANY additional hands. He paid his blinds and was taking a hand in the exact (relative) spot he was in prior to moving. It seems unfair to make him post.

Kevin,


In Los Angeles we call that "dealing off". You just took the blinds and the button and are in the cutoff when a seat in front of the blinds (it doesn't have to be exactly in front) opens up. You move to the open seat. You can (and usually should) choose to wait until the blinds and button pass and then get dealt in without posting. Or you can chose to get dealt in right away since you are moving towards the blinds – this can always be done without a posting penalty - of course you then have to post the blinds when they come the next hand or so (and if you don’t you miss your blinds).


You can also make this move from other seats, and get dealt in at the same relative position for free. The blinds can only pass you once without penalty.


But in Los Angeles if you move to your left (but not past the blinds) you wait the number of active players you skip over or you must post. We don’t let it slide when it is only two seats as they do in some places. Note that dealers and floor can get a little inconsistent when the seat you vacated immediately gets dealt in (some will make you wait one more hand) but that would be the subject of a nitty post and I’m trying to avoid being nitty or a nitwit these days.


Where do you have to post when waiting for the same relative position? I haven’t seen it and it doesn't make sense.


Regards,


Rick

This is called "dealing off" and is not permitted at Bellagio. I just asked a manager yesterday to see if the rule might have changed - nope.


Maybe someone can post the exact restrictions on dealing off at places that allow it.


To make up for this in Vegas, at the Bellagio and Mirage we have the Sklansky Rule (move past two live players to the left for free, rumored to be invented by David Sklansky), the Repost Rule (move from big blind to any other seat and only post the amount of the big blind), and the Small Blind Out of Position Rule (move from the small blind to anywhere and take your live small blind with you.) Collectively I call these the Screw the Tourists Rules, since the tourists often don't know about them but the Vegas locals take advantage of them.


The lack of the Deal Off Rule makes these other rules necessary. However, it would be more elegant and equitable just to have the Deal Off Rule combined with the New Players Will Sit When and Where the Old Players Damn Well Please Rule, as in the California cardrooms.

The room I was referring to is Hollywood Casino in Aurora, IL. Harrah's in East Chicago, IN (the only other poker room in the area) does allow "dealing off".


It just doesn't seem fair for a player to be penalized for changing seats. I do understand the "posting" rule when you move away from the blinds and therefore might receive an extra hand or two. But here, he is not receiving any additional hands. He is merely coming in where he was-- prior to changing seats. Yet, he has to post nonetheless? According to Abdule, that's the way they do it in Vegas too. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

Abdul,


You wrote: ”This is called "dealing off" and is not permitted at Bellagio. I just asked a manager yesterday to see if the rule might have changed - nope.”


Why would they restrict dealing off when so many customers are from California and used to it? Is there any logical argument against dealing off?


”To make up for this in Vegas, at the Bellagio and Mirage we have the Sklansky Rule (move past two live players to the left for free, rumored to be invented by David Sklansky),”


I thought the Sklansky Rule was to be allowed to tie up a seat and then be away from the table around 50% of the time. But that aside, to you think this is a good rule (skipping two seats left for free – not the endless lobbying)?


”the Repost Rule (move from big blind to any other seat and only post the amount of the big blind),”


When Hollywood Park opened they has the rule that only the big blind need be posted when moving left and the player wanted to play immediately (or course you can always wait). When the big clubs got together for a combined rulebook around 1996 or so Hollywood Park had to adopt the more common rule where “both blinds must be posted when moving away from the blinds”. My understanding was that to get the other Los Angeles clubs to all use the “half bet or more is treated like a full bet rule” they had to compromise on this one. If so, it was a good trade as the latter rule is better and important.


”and the Small Blind Out of Position Rule (move from the small blind to anywhere and take your live small blind with you.)’


Sounds strange. Do you think this is a good rule for Los Angeles?


”Collectively I call these the Screw the Tourists Rules, since the tourists often don't know about them but the Vegas locals take advantage of them.


Isn’t that what Las Vegas poker is all about ;-) .


”The lack of the Deal Off Rule makes these other rules necessary. However, it would be more elegant and equitable just to have the Deal Off Rule combined with the New Players Will Sit When and Where the Old Players Damn Well Please Rule, as in the California cardrooms.


Why shouldn’t existing players have first choice on existing seats?


Anyway, I’m now working for another one of the big Los Angeles clubs and may have some small but (hopefully) growing influence on rules and procedures. What do you think of “buy the button” (if perchance you don’t know this one look up Tommy Angelo’s web site and a thread I started on the General Holdem forum on April 1, 2001). I would also be interested in your opinion on the procedure allowing someone to post between the small blind and button (either as a new player for the big blind or both make up blinds if an existing player (BTW, they use this at the Hustler).


Regards,


Rick

At least ten times I've started work on an article about this and I get bogged down because the way I see it, the Vegas rules are so stupid and so bad that it must be me. I must not understand. I trust economics and evolution to produce workable, sensable solutions to everyday problems, especially in a geeky place like a poker room for crying out loud.


And that's where I get bogged down. I don't really want to say, "Hey, looky here, all you lamos in Vegas. We trend-setting innovators over here in California got it right, again, better than you. Do this in memory of us.


But how can they not just deal off? You move seats, you get the right amount of hands, always. Could any system possibly be more obvious and fair? I don't mean any seat-change system, I mean ANY system. Head, brick, hit head with brick. Or maybe it's me, like I said, maybe I'm missing something.


I'm given strength to speak by you, Abdul, and because I just played in Vegas for 10 days. If you guys want me to write an article for Pokerpages about this, I will. But I can't imagine it's not old news. So, what gives?


Tommy

Wow, I'm in the minority here; I liek the Vegas way a lot better. I think in LA there can be too much confusion, for example someone has to sit out 6 hands; 5 hands later he watns to play, the dealer has changed etc. I think the Vegas rule is simpler for a newcomer to understand; if you move more than 2 seats from the blind you must post or wait for the blind.


Randy Refeld

Why would they restrict dealing off when so many customers are from California and used to it? Is there any logical argument against dealing off?


I've heard the reason for no dealing off at Bellagio/Mirage is that management feels the dealers would get confused. I think they should just adopt the whole package of L.A. rules, to help foster tourism.


Do you think [the Small Blind Out of Position Rule] is a good rule for Los Angeles?


No, it's too powerful in some situations.


"Why shouldn’t existing players have first choice on existing seats?"


The Bellagio/Mirage rule is that if a new player wishes to post in an open seat, he gets the seat unless someone else moves there immediately and suffers the consequences.


For example, an old player was on the button and informed everyone that he wanted to move two seats to his left, just not this hand of course. Then a new player came to the table and said he wanted to take the big blind. The old player said, "no, I want to move there." The new player said "then move now." The old player said, "you can't post now anyway on the button, so just wait a hand." The new player replied "then I want the big blind." A floorman was called to resolve the deadlock. The floorman's decision was that the old player on the button must forfeit his button and take the big blind immediately, while the new player twiddles his thumbs for one round, or else the old player has to give that seat to the new player.