can anyone tell me how this is possible?

[jwvdcw]

His(Stu Ungar) next feat was to bet any takers $10,000 that he could perform yet another memory miracle: he offered to count down the last two decks in a six-deck shoe! There were no takers. Then in January 1977 a former owner of Vegas World and designer of the Stratosphere Tower stepped into his life. Stu Ungar met Bob Stupak. The new taker offered Stu $100,000 to count down the last three decks, half-way through a six-deck shoe. If Stu lost he'd owe Bob $10,000.

Memories of this amazing feat still linger on today in Las Vegas. To the astonishment of onlookers, and Bob, Stu didn't miss a single call from a total of 156 cards. When Bob handed him a check for $100,000, it marked the beginning of a lasting friendship between them.

Just curious as to what counting method one would use to do this.

[CCass]

I don't know about a particular counting method, but I read somewhere that Unger had a photographic memory.

[MMMMMM]

There is at least one thread on RGP about this. Supposedly Ungar had to identify the missing card(s) by both rank and suit. Maybe someone with more precise info. will comment.

[jwvdcw]

I understand how to identify the card number(not suit) of one card: 364x-the number of cards that you counted(J=11,Q=12,K=13, everything else equals its number) where x=the number of decks.

But I don't see how to incorporate suit into it. Nor do I see in any way how to determine multiple cards.

Ok then, let start this off easy:

Could anyone here correctly identify the card (number and suit of 1 unseen card out of 52(1 deck) if you only got to see) each card for one moment?

Could anyone identify just the number of 2 unseen cards out of 52(1 deck)?

If you can do either of the two, please explain your strategy. Then we can get more and more complicated from there. I'd really like to learn some of this.

[moondogg]

Given the preface that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about...
I remember reading this about a week after Ferguson did it with one deck on the WSOP.
I figured you picture a grid, suits across the top and ranks down the site. Whenever you see a card certain card, you start filling up each rank.
Granted, this would be extremely difficult, but I imagine with enough practice and natural ability (i.e. Ferguson), it would be very possible.
If I were given the task of doing it with one deck, this is the approach I would use, and I'm sure I would fail miserably.
For six decks, I would imagine it would be a similar technique, but then again I wouldn't be suprised if Unger was able to see the cards and just know, Rain Main style. Despite his problems, the guy had some serious streaks of genius.

[dogmeat]

A three-parammeter count for blackjack will deliver a number of cards at the end of a single deck. I have used my count system as a bar bet and made some easy money, often getting as high as 5-1 that I couldn't name the final card in a deck (no suits). It is often quite easy, the worst odds being when I know there is a 10-value card and have only a 1 in 4 chance of guessing the right one. If I got takers (win or lose) at the first bet, I would offer a new bet of guessing the last two, then the last three cards. The final bet of guessing the last three is almost as easy as the first bet, but always gets great odds.

A high-quality blackjack card counting system will have something like:

Aces count as zero
2 and 8 count as +1
3,4,6,7 count as +2
5 counts as +3
9 counts as -1
10's count as -3

You keep a running count of the cards seen, then have a good chance of knowing the final card.

Final count is +3 then final card is a ten-value card and your odds are 1 in 4 that you can guess it.

Final count is -2 then final card is 3,4,6 or 7 , again, your odds are 1 in 4 to guess.

Final count is zero - then it is an ace.

Final count is -3, then card is a five.

Final count is -1, then card is a 2 or 8

Final count is +1, then card is a 9

After running thousands of decks, I got pretty good at guessing correctly even when it was that pesky +3 or -2 at the end. With guessing the last two cards, you can see that the odds of guessing are not really harder, but you can get much higher odds from your bar buddy's.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[La Brujita]

Sorry to ask a really basic question but what do you mean by "count down" the last two decks?

Does it mean identify all the missing cards but in no particular order?

Thanks in advance.

[fsuplayer]

I was confused by this at first as well, but I think you are right.

at least, thats what I have been thinking since I heard this story and repeated it to numerous poker players.

fsuplayers

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to ask a really basic question but what do you mean by "count down" the last two decks?

Does it mean identify all the missing cards but in no particular order?

Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Stu named the suits and ranks of the all of the remaining cards (obviously he couldn't name the order).

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can do either of the two, please explain your strategy. Then we can get more and more complicated from there. I'd really like to learn some of this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Memory Hooks, should be plenty of info about this method on the net.

Jimbo

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
Bingo. Stu named the suits and ranks of the all of the remaining cards (obviously he couldn't name the order).


[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Of course I knew he couldn't guess the order, but I guess what I was not clear about was was he forced to do it in some order or in his own.

In other words could someone say name the spades left highest to lowest or some such thing if you get me.

Still a good feat, I could probably do it with 1 deck if I had a notebook in front of me.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you can do either of the two, please explain your strategy. Then we can get more and more complicated from there. I'd really like to learn some of this.


[/ QUOTE ]



Memory Hooks, should be plenty of info about this method on the net.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

well this place is the best place for card info, so can anyone here tell me about it?

[daryn]

you guys are crazy if you think ungar used some kind of counting system. the guy had a photographic memory. he just named off all the cards he didn't see. that is why it's so amazing. it's not a trick.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys are crazy if you think ungar used some kind of counting system. the guy had a photographic memory. he just named off all the cards he didn't see. that is why it's so amazing. it's not a trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he had to use some sort of system.

[fsuplayer]

I am not positive on this one, but I seem to remember in one of my psych classes (my minor), that there is no such thing as a photographic memory.

Am I completely wrong?

fsuplayer

[Glenn]

I think there may be a few documented cases of true photographic memory, but for the most part, most people who have "photographic memories" just have very well tuned ways of memorizing things. I believe Ungar falls into this catergory. The guy who holds the record for memorizing decks of cards is on TV occasionally, and does not have a true photographic memory. How he explained it is he assigns each card as an object/person (which are obviously known to him in advance), and then creates a story using these objects/people as he goes through the cards. Honestly, if any intelligent person dedicated enough time to it, he could probably learn to memorize cards. It's just a matter of putting forth the effort. For instance, one of Ungar's father's mafia friends who Ungar learned from supposedly memorized the entire dictionary while in prison.

Most of the Ungar worship is kind of silly. Sure, his tournament record is great, but apparently he wasn't the force that the legends tell of in cash games, even no limit. See quotes from Zee on this site. Being that Ray is probabaly the only one here who played much with Stuey, I'll take his word over that of every .5/1 player who needs an idol. People love to tell the story of how he called an all in bet with ten high and won while playing heads up with another top player. However no one knows how many times he made tilted all in calls with ten high and then quietly mucked his hand. The guy had a great memory, was a great gin player, and a great tournament player. He was not immortal.

[Toro]

Tthe "Rainman character" played by Dustin Hoffman was able to memorize a whole deck of cards and he was autistic.

[paland]

[ QUOTE ]
Tthe "Rainman character" played by Dustin Hoffman was able to memorize a whole deck of cards and he was autistic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's pretty good for an actor. Did they do it in one shoot?