Preflop cap with TT

[Rico Suave]

A friend asked me to comment on the following hand, and I would like to get your opinion on this.

BB has gone relatively unnoticed. Button is way loose, is overly aggressive at times, and stays with a hand too long.

PartyPoker 1/2 10 handed:
Hero is MP3 and has T /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Preflop: UTG+2 limps, MP2 limps, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, sb folds, BB caps, UTG+2 calls,MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop (20 sb -- 5 players) 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, button calls

Turn (12.5 bb -- 5 players) 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, button calls

River (17.5 bb -- 5 players) J /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

Opinions please.

--Rico

[kgrad5]

i raise the flop, if he 3-bets i can start thinking about call down mode

[Rico Suave]

Kgrad5:

[ QUOTE ]
i raise the flop, if he 3-bets i can start thinking about call down mode

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to stick a raise in there somewhere too, but considering the size of pot, relative position to preflop capper/flop bettor, the fact that it was capped preflop (indicating there is a decent chance hero is behind)...I am not sure what it will accomplish, especially if our intent is to call down.

I am considering that perhaps hero played this hand just fine.

--Rico

[kgrad5]

granted the average party player will not cap without a high pocket, but i have seen many a time a maniac or tilting player capping with crap like 56 and lots of good players will cap with AK/AKs and autobet the flop, the fact that it is capped pf likely points to a high pocket, but i think the raise will get more info as i really doubt an AK unimproved will 3-bet here although a maniac surely would.. and hero may actually be ahead in this hand.. it looks like this hero played scared in this hand and it wouldnt surprise me if the river raise was 2 pair that mp was allowed to draw to cheaply, the raise has a dual purpose, not only might he be ahead but if hero knocks out the other chasers, any of them, he improves his chance of winning and seeing a relatively cheap showdown..

[sublime]

Standard

The pot is to big to fold with an overpair and with all the preflop action you cant be sure that TT is walking.

[chief444]

Good one to post Rico.

I think this line is OK however I think I would raise the turn. With the lousy position relative to BB here though and the reads given it may not accomplish what I would hope, although I think there is a good chance BB would call the raise and check to you on the river with an overpair or worse.

[Joe Tall]

In such a big pot, the hero should raise the flop. Fearing a online preflop cap in a brewing monster pot isn't going to help him win this pot. So many loose players cap with anything in this situation as they just want to win a big pot, they're just gambooolin.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[vulturesrow]

Joe,

I am glad you posted that. I was thinking that same thing but consensus seemed to be against so I was trying to figure out where my thought process was going wrong..

Thanks,
Chris

[Rico Suave]

Joe:


[ QUOTE ]
Fearing a online preflop cap in a brewing monster pot isn't going to help him win this pot. So many loose players cap with anything in this situation as they just want to win a big pot, they're just gambooolin

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were the button who capped preflop, I agree, but since it was the BB, who so far has gone unnoticed, pipes up and caps when it is 3 to him? I am not saying that he definitely has a big pair, but I think it is not unreasonable to put him on AA-QQ or AK.

And it is not just fearing the big pocket pair that makes raising the flop not so attractive, imo. The pot is large, and hero's position relative to the bettor sucks. I am not saying that raising does nothing to protect his hand or help him win, but I think the benefit is tiny. And the risk of being 3-bet is high, and I doubt anyone would advocate folding to a turn blank once you call the 3-bet--or would you?

It is a combination of all of these factors that make the decisions tough.

--Rico

[kgrad5]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe,

I am glad you posted that. I was thinking that same thing but consensus seemed to be against so I was trying to figure out where my thought process was going wrong..

Thanks,
Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

i also said to raise the flop.. does my opinion mean nothing? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[vulturesrow]

Not at all..it just seemed the general sentiment was against it. Maybe not..and quite honestly, I value everyones opinion (after all it is a _discussion_ forum, not a Q&A forum), I just value some people's more in this context /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Fearing a online preflop cap in a brewing monster pot isn't going to help him win this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Joe Tall,

How does raising the flop help win this pot? I do agree that TT is likely the best hand at this point but with a fairly coordinated board, 4 overcards you don't really want to see, and many opponents it has to be a borderline raise for value with two cards to come.

[Joe Tall]

How does raising the flop help win this pot?

Calling is not going to work. Driving out overcards with a raise, defining your hand, and leveraging your position will though.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Rico Suave]

Joe:

[ QUOTE ]
Driving out overcards with a raise, defining your hand, and leveraging your position will though.


[/ QUOTE ]

In reality, his relative position sucks in this hand, which makes it very difficult to drive out overcards and protect his hand. No one is folding to a flop raise and there are lots of cards hero is not going to like on the turn with 4 opponents. I just do not see raising the flop here as a no-brainer move like you seem to think. What am I missing?

--Rico

[chief444]

I guess my question should have been how is raising the flop better than calling the flop and raising a turn undercard here? I ask mainly because I think overcards would be far more likely to fold on the turn than flop. Either way it's going to be tough to get any overcards out in this position but I do agree calling does little. Not disputing your advice which I respect, just trying to understand better why you feel a flop raise is best.

[Joe Tall]

In reality, his relative position sucks in this hand, which makes it very difficult to drive out overcards and protect his hand

I have to agree but knocking out the button is a benefit.

No one is folding to a flop raise

If he does have the best hand he is making money, let's leave this one out.

and there are lots of cards hero is not going to like on the turn with 4 opponents

Well, then calling the flop and raising the turn seems to be a better line. I nearly suggested it in the begining and now that I look over the action again, this line does seem best.

the flop here as a no-brainer move like you seem to think.

Who said "no-brainer"? It's a great hand to post.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

better than calling the flop and raising a turn undercard here?

In my latest response to Rico I suggested this. I may have been under the pretence that there were 2 opponents to act behind our hero.

Now that I look over the action again, the raise on the turn does seem correct.

just trying to understand better why you feel a flop raise is best.

I changed my mind. It's a great hand to post and I'm gald you two are in the discussion. A post like this is needed around here, I feel.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[chief444]

Thanks for the replies Joe Tall. Obviously you're right that this was a very good one to post.

[MKR]

[ QUOTE ]
it wouldnt surprise me if the river raise was 2 pair that mp was allowed to draw to cheaply, the raise has a dual purpose, not only might he be ahead but if hero knocks out the other chasers, any of them, he improves his chance of winning and seeing a relatively cheap showdown


[/ QUOTE ]

Given the size of the pot and the preflop action what sort of hand can be forced to fold to a raise? It is possible, though I think unlikely, that hero is ahead here so how does a raise help?

MKR