A few hands to analyse por favor [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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chawinski

08-06-2004, 12:30 AM

Just some backround first up. I only started playing a couple months ago. I haven't read any poker books(but SSH will be the first) - but i've read as much as humanly possible online.
I'm pretty green, I admit that. I would like any info you can give. More than just 'you played it wrong(or even right)' but the reasons why it was played well/badly would be of great help.

So here goes:

Hand 1;
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: chawinski is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, chawinski calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, chawinski calls.

Raise here? I think I should have.

Flop: (10 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, chawinski checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, chawinski calls.

7 outs right? The 4 kings and 3 aces? I had pot odds to call..

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG bets, chawinski calls, Button calls.

OK here i just scraped outside of pot odds...but i'd make up for it with implied odds yes? I'm iffy on this move though, any insight would be great.

River: (9.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, chawinski bets, Button calls, UTG folds.

Nuts! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between Button and chawinski.

Hand 2;
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: chawinski is UTG+2 with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, chawinski calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Should i have called from early position with this? Obviously its a nut flush-or-nothing hand. Even when the ace hits in this situation the kicker is very worrying. Prolly should only play this from late position with lots of limpers?

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, chawinski checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, chawinski calls, MP2 folds.

Pot odds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, chawinski checks, MP3 bets, CO folds, SB calls, chawinski calls.

Pot odds.

River: (8.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, chawinski checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, chawinski raises, MP3 3-bets, SB folds, chawinski caps, MP3 calls.

bling bling

Final Pot: 17.50 BB
Main Pot: 17.50 BB, between MP3 and chawinski.

Hand 3;
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: chawinski is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, chawinski raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, chawinski bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, chawinski bets, Button calls, BB calls, MP3 calls.

River: (13 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, chawinski checks, Button checks.

Should have bet here? 4 players in the hand and I shrivelled up.

Final Pot: 13 BB
Main Pot: 13 BB, between MP3, chawinski, Button and BB.

Thanks in advance!

detruncate

08-06-2004, 03:12 AM

Hi there. Welcome to the board. You'll get better reponses if you post each hand individually.

Hand 1: I'd probably raise pf, but the limp is ok. You probably want to devalue your A outs some, which makes your turn call even more sketchy. Most people around here follow the SSH suggestion of max 1.5 outs/overcard to compensate for the times you hit and lose. I'd most likely fold the turn.

Hand 2: The limp is just fine in most circumstances. I'd bet when checked to on the flop unless you were absolutely sure that one of the two people behind you would bet. With this many people seeing the flop, you're almost sure to get your 2+ callers necessary to jam the flush draw. The way you played it, I'd raise for sure when it comes back to me with 3 callers. You're looking to put in as many bets as possible. It also might buy you a free card on the turn.

Hand 3: I'm inclined to check/call this with the open ended 1 card straight on board. I think you played it fine.

flopmonster

08-06-2004, 03:25 AM

I agree hand 1 looks fine.. IMO play the Axs under the gun is right/wrong depending on the table. You have to ask yourself how many people will call behind you on average and how likely is it that someone will raise. Obviously these questions are not easily answer, but if the table is real loose/passive the preflop call is fine. Hand 3 was fine, no reason to bet on the end here, no one is folding and theres a very good chance someone has a ten.

smartalecc5

08-06-2004, 03:33 AM

dont think u need too much help, you kinda won like everything. good job

ejess

08-06-2004, 03:51 AM

Hand 1: I think I would have played it the same. The turn call depends on the mood Im in, feels close /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hand 2: I would raise this flop with 3 people trapped for value and to give myself better odds to call the turn. I would also cap it if it comes back 3-bet to me and everyone is still in it. I think this raise is important.

Hand 3: I would have played this the same way here and I would call an unraised bet from button on the river. But the fact that you are considering to bet on the river is good I think, the pot is kind of big so trying to push one or two people out for one BB might be a good idea, but I get the feeling that you are up against three calling-stations here so its probably not worth it at this table.

Peter Harris

08-06-2004, 04:16 AM

Hi there,

Hand 1: if convinced of superior postflop skills, AJo is worth a raise in EP. If you are not too sure, it has been said before that you don't lose too much in the early stages of learning by folding it.

The flop call is fine. you ought to discount the 3xA outs as KJ, AT, A6, AQ, all win if an A falls. Your real outs are the 4 kings, and you need 11.5-1 pot odds to call. Your pot is 14SB AND you close the action, so your flop call was +EV [positive expected value, it means if you did this 1000 times you'd show a profit] for the gutshot alone.

Turn: now there are only 6.5BB in the pot [post-rake] and you are being offered 7.5-1 when it's your action. By calling here, you need to make up another 4BB, and the only way to do that is for button to call [they did] and for both opponents to call 2 bets on the river. As this didn't happen, you had neither the pot odds [what was in the pot, a mere 7.5BB for an 11.5-1 shot] nor the implied odds to call the turn [being sure you'll make up the 4BB you are shorting yourself], so that move was -EV.

However you hit, the prescient UTG checkfolded and you took down 11.5BB on a -EV play. It happens, but next time, fold the turn.

The turn call is ONLY okay if you reintroduce the 3xAce outs, which i am not sure about.

Hand 2: PF limp is fine IF the table is passive. One of my biggest early leaks was playing small Axs - YOU DO NOT WANT THERE TO BE A RAISE! playing these for 2SB a time is horrid.

Raise the flop, you will win the pot more than your fair share. Check-call turn is fine, and the river is sweeeeet. excellent c/r given your passive nature throughout the hand, it was a given. I guess the person must have had 2pr/set on the flop to 3-bet a river c/r!

Hand 3: betting the river is a good idea against weak-tight opposition as they'll make you for a T and lay down the chop pot. However, against tricky opposition, they will know this ploy.

You must consider in these situations, whether a bet, check-call or check-fold are necessary, and i don't think checking it through is a bad move.

Sorry for the essay on the early one, if it makes no sense, ask questions.

Regards,
Pete Harris

Peter Harris

08-06-2004, 06:28 AM

corrections! rereading SSHE i realised that i got some of the odds wrong... sorry!

Hand 1 - gutshot is 10.5-1 NOT 11.5-1. Flop call is very +EV and the turn is only +EV IF when you call getting 7.5-1 that
a) Button calls turn [correct]
b) you hit [correct]
c) AND both UTG and Button call a river bet [this would give you exactly 10.5BB].

You got a and b but NOT c, UTG check-folded. thus, it was a -EV play, but only by 1BB.

If you need more clarification, i will provide it, sorry for the blasé odds error.

PH

chawinski

08-06-2004, 07:35 AM

Thanks a lot! Your insight has been very helpful. I think i just need a little more experience and practise to pick out the outs more carefully(and reading SSH would help too).

chawinski

08-06-2004, 07:37 AM

Hand 1;
Results below:
chawinski shows Ad Js (straight, ace high).
Button shows Jc Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: chawinski wins 11.50 BB.

Hand2;
Results below:
chawinski shows 4h Ah (flush, ace high).
MP3 shows Qh Qs (straight, queen high).
Outcome: chawinski wins 17.50 BB.

Hand3;
Results below:
BB shows Tc Js (straight, jack high).
MP3 shows 5c 6c (straight, nine high).
chawinski shows Ah Ad (straight, nine high).
Button shows 7d Jh (straight, nine high).
Outcome: BB wins 13 BB.

A failed checkraise? lol.

Thank you for all your input, much appreciated!

Cheers.

HajiShirazu

08-06-2004, 07:37 AM

In the first hand you should have raised preflop but it's not much difference. I only raise because I figure since it's close but probably marginally good, it's better to raise as the few observant opponents will see that I raise with a wider variety of hands.
I would have bet this flop, especially if button will auto raise with AK/AJ or fold an AK/AJ on the turn/river or fold a lower pocket pair on the flop/turn/river. I suppose I could be wrong, but you really have to make this bet, because unless he has AA or a set you have seven or more outs and you'd like to increase your chances of victory with them. In fact I would say that this might be your biggest mistake in the hand.
You can't call the turn though. Button could have a legitimate hand and raise and then you are stuck calling two bets when you barely should have called one. Also no matter what he has, if he only raises PF and only bets the flop with a legitimate hand, you often only have 4 outs or he is holding some of the outs that you need or both.
Nice play on the river, the key to any marginal call is making the hand and tilting the opposition.
In hand 2 in a game where lots of people take the flop like the one you are in that is a playable hand. Bet the flop. What an awesome river card. Doesn't get any better than that.
Just check the river in hand three. Oh and good bet on the turn, glad to see you made that important play that a lot of players wouldn't make. I know your opponents are probably morons but morons will call and nobody is folding a worse hand (heh.) Also you don't want to start a raising war on this river playing the board which a lot of guys who are also playing the board will be happy to do. Just check it and hope nobody bets and jacks up the rake or beats your hand.

BradleyT

08-06-2004, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
corrections! rereading SSHE i realised that i got some of the odds wrong... sorry!

Hand 1 - gutshot is 10.5-1 NOT 11.5-1. Flop call is very +EV and the turn is only +EV IF when you call getting 7.5-1 that
a) Button calls turn [correct]
b) you hit [correct]
c) AND both UTG and Button call a river bet [this would give you exactly 10.5BB].

You got a and b but NOT c, UTG check-folded. thus, it was a -EV play, but only by 1BB.

If you need more clarification, i will provide it, sorry for the blasé odds error.

PH

[/ QUOTE ]

If you give him 33% credit when an ace hits (3 in deck, so 1 out) he has 5 outs on the turn which means he needs 8.2:1, so I think his call is fine.